1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Irish1975
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1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by Irish1975 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:54 pm

1) What is the status of this passage today?

2) Is there a credible argument that the author of this earliest Pauline, NT text actually wrote it? Read what comes before and after and, you'll see what I mean.

3) It says that the <<Iudaioi>> (sometimes translated Jews, sometimes Judaeans) killed the Lord Jesus. OOOOKKKKAAAAYYYYY.

4) It racks up a litany of complaints in addition to the murder of "the Lord Jesus." Including being "against all human beings." Is this not one of the most potently and virulently anti-Judaic/anti-Jewish texts ever?

5) The guy who wrote these verses was not the guy who wrote Romans 9-11.

6) Can a sound historical argument be made that this passage was probably inserted by the publisher of the original edition of the New Testament (see David Trobisch), who was either Polycarp or someone in the orbit of Polycarp and Irenaeus?
"Jesus tricked everyone" ~the gospel of Philip

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:04 am

I lean toward it being an interpolation. I also think that 1 Thessalonians 5.1-11 either is an interpolation or contains some. I observed once in a previous post:
Another consideration, which I will touch upon just briefly here, is that I also tend to think that 1 Thessalonians 2.14-16 is probably an interpolation, a position which I know is quite popular on this forum. But 1 Thessalonians 2.14-16 has more in common with the gospel of Matthew than with any other text of which I am aware, and so does 1 Thessalonians 5.1-11. I believe that somebody dredged the first Thessalonian epistle through some Matthean material before it reached us in its current form.
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FransJVermeiren
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by FransJVermeiren » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:26 am

IMO the cesure between the original Pauline text and the work of an interpolator lies between verse 13 and 14. Verse 13 speaks about the opposition between the ‘logos of men’ and the ‘logos of God’, which touches the core of Paul’s mission: to propagate a ‘message of God’ which is diametrically opposed to the ‘message of men’, Roman imperial ideology and religion. See also Galatians 1. So verse 13 is anti-Roman and therefore Pauline, while the following verses are fully anti-Jewish and therefore non-Pauline.

The interpolated text (verse 14-16) is written after 70 CE, as verse 16b ‘But God’s wrath has come upon them at last!’ refers to the destruction of Jerusalem at the end of the war against the Romans. Paul’s career ended before the war.
Last edited by FransJVermeiren on Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

perseusomega9
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by perseusomega9 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:51 am

We have zero textual evidence, therefore not an interpolation.

andrewcriddle
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by andrewcriddle » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:57 pm

the Jews who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets
is attested as part of Marcion's text ( see Ben's excellent resource viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1840 ) which suggests that at least this part of the passage is not an interpolation.

Andrew Criddle

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by robert j » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:04 pm

I’m not in a position to delve more deeply into the following questions about 1 Thessalonians 2:14 at this time, so I thought I would just toss it out-there for now.

1 Thessalonians 2:14 using the Berean Literal Bible English translation, with the Greek text ---

For you became imitators, brothers, of the churches of God in Judea being in Christ Jesus. For the same as them, you also suffered from the own countrymen as they also did from the Jews,

ὑμεῖς γὰρ μιμηταὶ ἐγενήθητε, ἀδελφοί, τῶν ἐκκλησιῶν τοῦ Θεοῦ τῶν οὐσῶν ἐν τῇ Ἰουδαίᾳ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, ὅτι τὰ αὐτὰ ἐπάθετε καὶ ὑμεῖς ὑπὸ τῶν ἰδίων συμφυλετῶν, καθὼς καὶ αὐτοὶ ὑπὸ τῶν Ἰουδαίων,

About the phrase “… you also suffered from the own countrymen as they also did from the Jews (Judeans) …” does the terminology or context clearly limit just who these “countrymen” could be? Gentile Macedonians? Local (fully-converted) Macedonian proselytes? Locals of Judean ethnicity? Other possibilities? In other words, at the time, was the Greek term συμφυλετῶν (countrymen) limited to ethnicity, or could it have been used in a wider sense of anyone born (or even just living) in a particular geographic region?

Also, the Greek seems to be consistent among standard Greek texts except for the Tischendorf 8th Edition, which is significantly different ---

ὑμεῖς γάρ μιμητής γίνομαι ἀδελφός ὁ ἐκκλησία ὁ θεός ὁ εἰμί ἐν ὁ Ἰουδαία ἐν Χριστός Ἰησοῦς ὅτι ὁ αὐτός πάσχω καί ὑμεῖς ὑπό ὁ ἴδιος συμφυλέτης καθώς καί αὐτός ὑπό ὁ Ἰουδαῖος

I checked a few manuscript variant resources, but didn’t see these differences listed as MSS variants or variant attestations. What’s up with that?
Last edited by robert j on Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Bewell
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by Bewell » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:21 pm

I'm with those few who date 1 Thes. as late, around the time of 2 Thes. The apocalyptic scenario is derivative of the Corinthians correspondence. There is no use of the term "flesh", a Pauline favorite term. The audience is concerned about the dying, thus, perhaps not a young church.

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:46 pm

is attested as part of Marcion's text
Image

An attested photo of the Loch Ness monster.
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FransJVermeiren
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by FransJVermeiren » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:17 pm

perseusomega9 wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:51 am
We have zero textual evidence, therefore not an interpolation.
William O. Walker discusses 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16 on page 210-220 of his Interpolations in the Pauline Letters.

On this pages Walker discusses 8 sorts of evidence for interpolation:
• Text-Critical Evidence
• Contextual Evidence
• Linguistic Evidence
• Ideational Evidence
• Comparative Evidence
• Situational Evidence
• Motivational Evidence
• Locational Evidence

Under ‘Text-Critical Evidence’ Walker mentions: There is no apparent text-critical evidence for viewing 1 Thess. 2.13-16 (or any portion of it) as a non-Pauline interpolation.

After the discussion of all eight kinds of evidence he concludes: On the basis primarily of contextual (including form-critical), linguistic, and ideational considerations, a strong case has been made for viewing 1 Thess. 2.13-16 as a non-Pauline interpolation. Moreover, the case has been buttressed by comparative, situational and motivational considerations.

Irish1975
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by Irish1975 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:33 am

andrewcriddle wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:57 pm
the Jews who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets
is attested as part of Marcion's text ( see Ben's excellent resource viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1840 ) which suggests that at least this part of the passage is not an interpolation.

Andrew Criddle
According to BeDuhn's work on the Marcion NT, the name <<Jesus>> is absent from this text (which comes from Tertullian):
...the Judeans, who killed both the Master and their own prophets...
Ordinarily, I would take the attestation at face value, other things being equal. But it's such a charged text both for both Marcion and Tertullian, who both have issues with the Jews to say the least; so do the proto-orthodox bishops, and most Christians of the mid to late 2nd century. This passage goes to the heart of not only the Christian/Jewish split, but also the connection between Paul and the churches in Judea. One of Trobisch's main arguments about the first publisher is that he was motivated by an overriding concern to harmonize the Pauline movement with the Jerusalem movement, and I think this interpolation (if such it is) contributes to that goal. Maybe the publisher was even worried about Paul's otherwise weak testimony concerning a historical (Judean) Jesus. If, on the other hand, Ben is right that the circle behind Matthew's gospel is responsible for it, that still goes to show that some late-stage canonical intertextuality agenda is at work.
"Jesus tricked everyone" ~the gospel of Philip

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