1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Irish1975
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 --- Interpolation or Not?

Post by Irish1975 »

robert j wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:39 am
Irish1975 wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:59 pm
robert j wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:04 pm
Now, I think Paul clearly derived much of his system from creative readings of the Jewish scriptures, including the sufferings, death and resurrection of his Jesus Christ. And that, as result, I think the most likely location of the scriptural “events” of Paul’s Jesus Christ would have been the Jewish homelands.
If you're putting scare quotes around the word "event," which "happens" on account of a "creative reading of scripture," maybe what you're talking about is fiction, not history, and maybe suggesting a "location" for this "event" in historical time and geographical space is hopelessly muddled?
Bingo.

I don’t think that I have (at least intentionally) indicated that I thought the “events” of Paul’s Jesus Christ in the Jewish scriptures actually happened, that they were historical.

I think Paul derived the “events” of his Jesus Christ from his creative allegorical and typological readings of the Jewish scriptures in order to reveal hidden meanings, a long-secret mystery.

Such treatments of the scriptures were not new or unique to Paul within the wide realm of Jewish thought of the times. For many in those days, the sacred scriptures were living documents --- a continuing source of new insights and guidance for the here and now.

Philo applied allegorical and typological readings of the Jewish scriptures. And Philo wrote about a group of Alexandrian Jews --- he called the Therapeutae --- that spent many hours each day studying the Jewish scriptures for hidden meanings.

The sectarian authors of the Dead Sea Scroll Pesharim typically ignored the historical and literary context in the scriptural passages, and instead, applied the ancient scriptural messages to the events and concerns in their own contemporary community.

In his commentary on Psalm 1, Origen cites a 'Hebrew' scholar as saying that the Jewish scriptures are like a large house with very many rooms. Outside each door lies a key --- but not the right key. The great and difficult task is to find the right keys that will open the doors.

Now, if asked by one of his followers, I think Paul would have said that the “events” of his Jesus Christ that he found in the Jewish Scriptures actually did happen. He would say that the events were hidden, they were a mystery that had to be unraveled and revealed by inspired readings and new interpretations. It just so happens, Paul would have continued, God revealed to me the keys to unraveling these mysteries.

My interest now in this regard is --- using Paul’s occasional letters, our limited record of his creative exegesis --- to try and determine if it is possible to more clearly determine whom Paul may have intended as responsible for hanging his Jesus Christ on wood. That effort may very well be hopeless in light of the limited extant evidence --- but I think the question deserves investigation.
The point of all this, Robert, is that 1 Th 2:15-16 historicizes Jesus as a Jew/Judaean killed by his fellow Jews/Judeans, and that contrary to everything else that the "real" Paul of Romans/Corinthians/Galatians says about the death of Jesus Christ. As I wrote in an earlier post, to which you did not respond, nowhere else does Paul speak of that death as a human murder with individual human culprits. He never blames the Romans or the Jews for killing Jesus.

Whether or not one adopts a mythicist reading of Paul's christology, 1 Th 2:15-16 is best read as a post-Pauline interpolation, from the time when the church was especially anxious to (take your pick)

(a) harmonize Paul with Peter and the other apostles
(b) understand Paul as knowledgeable about the Jesus of the Gospels
(c) euhemerize Paul's account of Jesus
robert j
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 --- Interpolation or Not?

Post by robert j »

Before I respond to your (Irish1975) last post, I want to revise and review my position on this topic.

In my first post on this thread on the top of page 2, I wrote ---
robert j wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:44 am In Paul, it was ancient Jews that killed his Jesus Christ within the realm of his source material --- the Jewish scriptures.
I think I overstated the evidence. The evidence in Paul’s letters, as far as I have seen to date, only supports this much ---

In Paul, his Jesus Christ suffered and died within the realm of his source material --- the Jewish scriptures.

I think this can be further clarified by another statement from this thread ---
robert j wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:39 am
Now, if asked by one of his followers, I think Paul would have said that the “events” of his Jesus Christ that he found in the Jewish Scriptures actually did happen. He would say that the events were hidden, they were a mystery that had to be unraveled and revealed by inspired readings and new interpretations. It just so happens, Paul would have continued, God revealed to me the keys to unraveling these mysteries.
I certainly don’t think Paul’s very creative exegesis represents any real history of a Jesus Christ.

I also wrote ---
robert j wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:04 pm ... I want to investigate more deeply whom Paul may have intended as responsible for hanging his Jesus Christ on wood. Was it just ancient Jews in the scriptures? Pagan Canaanites? Foreign invaders or rulers? Did Jews participate with these others? Were the humans influenced by heavenly/spiritual forces or deceivers? Some combination of these?

Is it even possible to reasonably derive the culprits from Paul’s occasional letters?
I haven’t yet had the opportunity to delve more deeply into this question. But I suspect that clearly deriving the culprits from Paul’s letters may not be possible, at least not without venturing further out on a limb of speculation than I am usually comfortable with.

It seems apparent that Paul’s congregations accepted his scriptural “account” of the suffering and death of his Jesus Christ. That was foundational to his entire system, and he likely demonstrated those “events” in some detail from the Jewish scrolls in his initial evangelizing visit. Without that concept in place, he might just as well have read animal entrails. In Paul’s occasional letters, it was the effects and implications of that salvific death that were of concern to his followers. Paul didn’t need to review many details of the death in those letters, so we are left with few clues. Such as ---

Jesus Christ was suspended on a stake by rulers that didn’t understand the hidden wisdom of God in 1 Corinthians 2:6-8.

He (Jesus) came from the spiritual realm and took-on the likeness of men in Philippians 2:6-7.

Having come of woman, and having come under the law gave Jesus Christ “standing” to redeem those under the law in Galatians 4:4-5.

He accomplished that redemption from the law by being hung on wood in the Jewish tradition from a very creative reading of Deuteronomy in Galatians 3:13.

He suffered and died for the sins of many, and was resurrected, from, at least in part, Isaiah 53 (Romans 4:25).

The redemptive suffering and death are clearly creative derivations from the “history” of the Jewish people --- the Jewish scriptures --- and were presented within the realm of Jewish culture.

Were Jews to blame? Were they somehow involved? That’s not explicit nor (I don't think at this time) even clearly implied in Paul’s letters beyond the Jewish setting.

In terms of 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, my position is the same ---
robert j wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:44 am Could it be an interpolation? Sure. But I’m no longer prone to so readily dismiss the passage as an interpolation.
And why I think it’s possible that Paul may have laid blame on the Jews in that passage ---
robert j wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:04 pm
... in terms of 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, with the setting of Paul’s source material from the Jewish scriptures, for the hyperbole-prone Paul to lay the blame for killing both the prophets and Jesus Christ on the Jews in an angry rant to provide some encouragement to his followers --- who were apparently being hassled by local ethnic-Jews or fully-converted Macedonians --- I still think is possible.


Now to address your post ---
Irish1975 wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:19 pm
The point of all this, Robert, is that 1 Th 2:15-16 historicizes Jesus as a Jew/Judaean killed by his fellow Jews/Judeans ...
As described above, I certainly think Paul would have told his followers that the “events” of his Jesus Christ did happen, just like he showed them in the scriptures.
Irish1975 wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:19 pm
... and that contrary to everything else that the "real" Paul of Romans/Corinthians/Galatians says about the death of Jesus Christ.
I’m not aware of anything in Paul’s letters that would clearly contradict the concept that Jews may have been involved in the death of Paul’s Jesus Christ.
Irish1975 wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:19 pm
As I wrote in an earlier post, to which you did not respond, nowhere else does Paul speak of that death as a human murder with individual human culprits.
Not humans? Who else? Who hung Jesus on the tree?

I think the evidence in Paul’s letters that he placed the death on earth far outweighs any possible evidence for a death in the celestial realm a la Doherty and Carrier.
Irish1975 wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:19 pm He never blames the Romans or the Jews for killing Jesus.
Agreed, not the Romans, and not the Jews in an explicit manner beyond the passage in question.
Irish1975 wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:19 pm
Whether or not one adopts a mythicist reading of Paul's christology, 1 Th 2:15-16 is best read as a post-Pauline interpolation ...
You have plenty of company in your opinion. I’m just not convinced which is the best solution here.
Last edited by robert j on Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
John2
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by John2 »

robert j wrote:
... I suspect that clearly deriving the culprits from Paul’s letters may not be possible, at least not without venturing further out on a limb of speculation than I am usually comfortable with.
Why do we need know exactly who the culprits were in Paul? If you think the archons in 1 Cor. 2:8 are only demons, then that's that. And if you think it means humans (or demons acting through humans), then that's that. And since I subscribe to the latter interpretation (which is in keeping with the interpretation of Ps. 2 in Revelation, 4QFlor and such), that's that. I don't need or expect to know from Paul exactly which humans killed Jesus, any more than I need to know exactly which demons killed Jesus, if that's what he means (whether they were directing humans or acting alone).

Do we know exactly which humans James has in mind when he says in 5:6, "You have condemned and murdered the righteous person. He does not resist you"? All we can say is that it is directed at rich people. But I don't worry about exactly which rich people. I assume it was the kind of rich people who did not care for the kind of people that James liked, and, given the context of the times (which I take to be the first century CE since I view the letter of James as being genuine), I suppose it would apply to rich people who had the power to condemn and kill the kind of people that James liked. And in my view that would be Pharisees (whom Jesus castigates for ostentation and such, and of whom Paul was one when he persecuted Christians), Sadducees (whom Josephus says appealed only to the rich and deferred to Pharisaic rulings during this time) and the Herodians (who act in cahoots with the Pharisees to kill Jesus in Mark).

Does it matter exactly which demons killed Jesus (if that is your take)? Does anyone ever speculate about it? Isn't it enough to think that they were the kind of demons who didn't like Jesus? And wouldn't that also be the case if Paul is referring to humans (or humans acting under the direction of demons)?

Plus I have no issue with 1 Thess. 2:14-16. So for me it clarifies what Paul means in 1 Cor. 2:8, but even then it doesn't say exactly which Jews killed Jesus.
Last edited by John2 on Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:35 pm, edited 5 times in total.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by John2 »

Let's compare Paul (and James 5:6) with what Josephus says about Jesus ben Ananias in War 6.5.3. Does he say exactly who beat and killed him?
... there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.
So in this case we don't know exactly which Jews beat him and which Romans killed him (whether on purpose or by accident). Does anyone ever wonder exactly which Jews beat him and which Romans killed him? In the former case, I assume they were the kind of Jews (including rulers) who did not like what he was saying. As for who they were exactly, we can't say, but I gather they were the kind of Jews James refers to in chapter 5, "you who are rich ... have condemned and murdered the righteous person. He does not resist you," and that's enough for me. And if you want to suppose that demons had directed them to do it, fine.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
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