A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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andrewcriddle
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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andrewcriddle wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:47 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:20 am

Thanks, Andrew. So what do you think is going on with your method being able to identify only 3 out of 7 plays as Shakespearean?
FWIW it is poems not plays.

I haven't studied this in detail and can't really comment.

Andrew Criddle
I have been looking at the relevant paper
Did Shakespeare write ?

The results reported seem broadly as I would have expected with one striking exception.
Puck's song in Midsummer Night's Dream has apparently only one word otherwise not found in Shakespeare and four words found only once. (For a total number of five I would have expected three words otherwise not found in Shakespeare and two words found only once.) The result for Puck's song prima-facie suggests an imitation of Shakespeare rather than an original piece by Shakespeare. Obviously the poem was written by Shakespeare but there may be some special issue here e.g. possibly the song is largely repeated somewhere else in Shakespeare's work. However the numbers are so small in total that the anomaly may be pure chance.

The paper does find that the ratio of new words to words previously used once only is not useful in discriminating between authentic and inauthentic works. Since none of the works involved is a deliberate imitation of Shakespeare I would have expected this.

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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Post by Roger Viklund »

John2 wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:03 pm And so what if the youth was "wearing a linen cloth over his naked body"? I gather this is the same youth mentioned in Mk. 14:51-52 and 16:5-7:
I’m a bit curious about the adjective naked in the sentence καὶ ὀψίας γενομένης ἔρχεται ὁ νεανίσκος πρὸς αὐτὸν· περιβεβλημένος σινδόνα ἐπὶ γυμνοῦ, in Smith’s translation: “and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body.” The expression “epi gumnou” (ἐπὶ γυμνοῦ) could perhaps literally be translated as “on/over [his] naked (genitive) [body]”, and then “on his naked body”. But in Swedish, which is my native language, we would in this construction normally not use naked but bare: “på sin bara kropp”, i.e. “on his bare body”. I find it odd to use naked in these types of constructions and would like to know what those of you who have English as your native language think of this. Is it normal to say that you wear the shirt on your naked body? In Swedish we would, in translation, say that he wore a shirt om his bare body, not naked body. The adjective “bare” has no direct connotation to nakedness in the same way as the word naked.
Last edited by Roger Viklund on Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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Example: naked / linen cloth

Eternal Egypt site

Topics: Clothing

Society and Culture > Clothing


The climate of Egypt forced people from prehistoric times to wear light, airy clothing. Linen, made from flax, was the most common material. In later periods, wool and cotton were used. On the earliest predynastic palettes, men are shown naked except for a belt around the waist with a cloth to cover their loins or a kilt with a thick fringe of plant material. The palette of King Narmer is the earliest record of a king wearing the short kilt, called the Shendyt, with its two ends crossed over and tucked under a belt tied at the front.

The dress of the Egyptian pharaohs changed little over time. In addition to the Shendyt kilt, they wore the Nemes headdress. The headdress was a piece of linen cloth gathered at the back of the head. The false beard was also worn to distinguish the pharaoh and associate him with the gods, who were believed to wear straight beards.

Along with the kilt, high officials of the Old Kingdom wore ornaments such as necklaces and pendants. Important men also wore a shoulder cape. Sem priests and others who performed priestly functions wore a whole leopard skin, including head, paws, and tail. By the New Kingdom, those in high ranks wore a longer tunic that reached the ankles. This fit under the arms and was held up by a ribbon around the neck. Other high officials wore a pleated kilt or a kilt with an apron over it and a pleated shirt. A short, wide sleeveless cloak was also worn. Sandals were made from leather, papyrus, or palm leaves.

Women's dress in predynastic times probably covered the whole body. A long, sheath-like tunic held up by shoulder straps with the upper edge either above or below the bust was the typical garment in the Old and Middle Kingdoms. In cooler weather, wealthy women put on a long-sleeved gown that hung in folds. During festive occasions, they would wear nets of faience beads across the middle of their tunics. By the New Kingdom, women's clothing was made of two or more pieces, usually in white, but sometimes in pastel shades. Women began to wear over their tunics sheer outer garments, pleated or straight, that were pinned over the bust or tied in decorative ways. Shoulder-length cloaks with a knotted fringe were added to the costume.

Common people wore simple garments, or in the case of boatmen, fishermen, and papyrus gatherers, no clothing at all. Servant girls wore only a skirt or apron. Farmers and other workers wore a simple apron. They wore a kilt when bringing produce to town or visiting relatives or temples. By the Middle Kingdom, the kilt became daily wear in the countryside, sometimes topped with a loose-fitting shirt or tunic.

During the Greco-Roman period, clothing was influenced by the conquering Greeks and Romans. Men and women both wore garments made of large pieces of material, intricately draped to create folds, pleats, and wide sleeves. The cloth was held in place by pins and belts. The chiton, himation, and chlamys are several Greco-Roman styles adopted by the Egyptians.
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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Roger Viklund wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:39 am I’m a bit curious about the adjective naked in the sentence καὶ ὀψίας γενομένης ἔρχεται ὁ νεανίσκος πρὸς αὐτὸν· περιβεβλημένος σινδόνα ἐπὶ γυμνοῦ, in Smith’s translation: “and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body.” The expression “epi gumnou” (ἐπὶ γυμνοῦ) could perhaps literally be translated as “on/over [his] naked (genitive) [body]”, and then “on his naked body”. But in Swedish, which is my native language, we would in this construction normally not use naked but bare: “på sin bara kropp”, i.e. “on his bare body”. I find it odd to use naked in these types of constructions and would like to know what those of you who have English as your native language think of this. Is it normal to say that you wear the shirt on your naked body? In Swedish we would, in translation, say that he wore a shirt om his bare body, not naked body. The adjective “bare” has no direct connotation to nakedness in the same way as the word naked.
The obvious parallel is Mark 14 51 Καὶ νεανίσκος τις συνηκολούθει αὐτῷ περιβεβλημένος σινδόνα ἐπὶ γυμνοῦ ... translated in KJV and later revisions as And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about his naked body ... or similar. Modern English translations tend to render this a bit differently avoiding the word naked.

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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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Roger Viklund wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:39 am
John2 wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:03 pm And so what if the youth was "wearing a linen cloth over his naked body"? I gather this is the same youth mentioned in Mk. 14:51-52 and 16:5-7:
I’m a bit curious about the adjective naked in the sentence καὶ ὀψίας γενομένης ἔρχεται ὁ νεανίσκος πρὸς αὐτὸν· περιβεβλημένος σινδόνα ἐπὶ γυμνοῦ, in Smith’s translation: “and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body.” The expression “epi gumnou” (ἐπὶ γυμνοῦ) could perhaps literally be translated as “on/over [his] naked (genitive) [body]”, and then “on his naked body”. But in Swedish, which is my native language, we would in this construction normally not use naked but bare: “på sin bara kropp”, i.e. “on his bare body”. I find it odd to use naked in these types of constructions and would like to know what those of you who have English as your native language think of this. Is it normal to say that you wear the shirt on your naked body? In Swedish we would, in translation, say that he wore a shirt om his bare body, not naked body. The adjective “bare” has no direct connotation to nakedness in the same way as the word naked.
"Naked" and "bare" can have different connotations in English (with "naked" probably being more likely in sexual contexts, on average, than "bare"), but not always. With some parts of the body "bare" is more common than "naked" (I get just under a million and a half hits on Google for "naked feet," but over sixteen million for "bare feet"). With the body as a whole "naked" is more common than "bare" (under a million hits for "bare body," over twelve million for "naked body"). But the two words are synonyms: I do not think that the less common expression "bare body" is meant to convey any information that is different from "naked body." To more directly answer your question, the sentences both in Mark and in Secret Mark sound more natural to me with "naked" than with "bare."
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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There is also this:
When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go (λύσατε αὐτὸν καὶ ἄφετε αὐτὸν)." [John 11.43, 44 NIV]
So Lazarus is naked. Of course the King James Version of the text renders the Greek as:
And he that was dead came forth bound hand and foot with graveclothes and his face was bound about with a napkin Jesus saith unto them 'Loose him and let him go.'
In Platonism the dead are judged naked:
First of all then, said he, men must be stopped from foreknowing their deaths, for now they have knowledge beforehand. Prometheus has already been told to stop this foreknowledge. Next they must be stripped naked of all these things before trial, for they must be judged after death. And the judge must be naked too and dead, scanning with his soul itself the souls of all immediately after death, deprived of all his kinsmen and with all that fine attire of his left on earth, that his verdict may be just. Now I had realized all this before you, and I have appointed my three sons as judges two from Asia, Minos and Rhadamanthus, and one, Aeacus, from Europe. And when these are dead, they will hold court in the meadow, at the crossroads from which two paths lead, one to the isles of the blessed, the other to Tartarus. And Rhadamanthus will judge those who come from Asia, Aeacus those from those from Europe, and to Minos I will grant the privileges of court appeal, if the other two are in doubt so that their judgement about which path men take may be as just as possible (Gorgias 523d - 524)

Two affirmations strike us in a particular way in the passage. In the first place it is emphasized that the supreme judgment is made by a soul without a body on a soul equally without a body; that is, in their purely spiritual aspect; and in the soul, Plato immediately after explains, "when it lacks the body, its constitutive characteristics and affections which man has received for it by means of his mode of living in different circumstances is quite visible": it is a judgment then that is conducted entirely within the sphere of the soul. The other affirmation pointed out is that Zeus establishes that his three sons will do the judging. Can anyone avoid the surprising analogy with the evangelical maxim: "The Father judges no one, but entrusts judgment to the Son." (John 5.22) The judgment, as we have stated, rewards the just ones (especially the philosophers, who do not waste their time in the vain pursuits of life, but who care only for human excellence (virtue) with a happy life on the Isle of the Blessed and punishments for evil-doers in Hades. [Giovanni Reale, A History of Ancient Philosophy: Plato and Aristotle Translated by John R. Catan p. 146 - 147]
And while we 'Westerners' can interpret nakedness strictly in terms of sexual activity, it is worth noting that the Pentateuch consistently connects it with shame and guilt. Immediately after the fall, people realized in themselves the shame of nakedness (ἔγνωσαν ὅτι γυμνοὶ ἦσαν) and fear before God (ἐφοβήθην ὅτι γυμνός εἰμι). To that end it has been argued that the word γυμνοὶ, “naked”, also may connote “guilty” and “vulnerable”, which emphasizes that not the nakedness itself, but that guilt was a reason for shame. Hence an underlying connection with Plato's 'naked' judgement for the dead.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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A 1781 manuscript of the Testament of Abraham which seems to draw from older material than extant versions of the text - https://www.academia.edu/21479701/One_M ... ns_Exagoge
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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Thanks Andrew and Ben for your clarifications regarding the word naked.
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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The climate of Egypt forced people from prehistoric times to wear light, airy clothing. Linen, made from flax, was the most common material. In later periods, wool and cotton were used. On the earliest predynastic palettes, men are shown naked except for a belt around the waist with a cloth to cover their loins or a kilt with a thick fringe of plant material.
Common people wore simple garments, or in the case of boatmen, fishermen, and papyrus gatherers, no clothing at all. Servant girls wore only a skirt or apron. Farmers and other workers wore a simple apron. They wore a kilt when bringing produce to town or visiting relatives or temples. By the Middle Kingdom, the kilt became daily wear in the countryside, sometimes topped with a loose-fitting shirt or tunic.
An important point here is that being completely "naked" or being "naked" under a linen cloth was very common, especially for ordinary working men at the bottom strata of society. So while we would think it abnormal to see men who essentially just had a towel wrapped around them in public, outdoors, that would be pretty normal in antiquity. It had more to do with custom, with poverty, with status, and with utility than it had to do with sexual availability or activity. Ancient clothes that covered up a lot were both expensive and impractical when doing physical work. There's no sensible reason to take such clothes, even if you had them, out into the field or on to a fishing boat, since cleaning clothes wasn't a very easy or effective endeavor. Presumably they would try to dress up further for only a special occasion, if they could afford the clothes.

John 21:7 is an example of a "naked" man - Peter while fishing - where nobody tries to read sexuality into it.

We really should read things the other way -- if a fisherman was in robes, that is remarkable. A man with just a linen cloth isn't unusual, and referring to someone this way is to refer to the common dress/undress of lower class men in antiquity.

Here we see a bunch of men with only a linen cloth, along with women and higher status men with more.

Image

Clothing and being sure to wear substantial clothing was a way of communicating status; not affording clothing or stripping someone of all clothing communicated lack of status.

https://sarahemilybond.com/2014/06/28/t ... l-display/
In Roman antiquity, slaves often had bare chests. For example, mill slaves likely only wore the subligaculum. The example I usually refer to when I speak about bakeries is from the relief of Eurysaces the baker outside the Porta Maggiore in Rome. We can often discern slaves in certain contexts based on their complete lack of clothing or their wearing of nothing more than a bit of a loincloth. Notably, slaves stood naked on the platform to be sold, and thus in this spatial context, nudity was tied directly to servility. Others that appear partially nude or in underclothes were similarly degraded: prostitutes, actors, and gladiators all appeared in public in various states of undress.

Clearly clothing could communicate status to others, but there was an added component found in beliefs surrounding the Roman gaze. For this we turn to the Theodosian Code (7.1.13), and a law of 391 addressed to Richomer, a Count and Master among both military branches. In it, soldiers that stopped along rivers were not allowed to defile the water with dirt and sweat from washing their horses, or allowed to defile the public gaze (‘deproperus publicos oculos nudatus incestet ‘) by washing said horses in the nude. At its heart, the passage is about pollution–both environmental and visual–and demonstrates the gravity with which emperors approached nudity at times. Soldiers were required to leave the public sight in order to wash their horses in the nude, and to do so downstream. It was not just that they were naked, but that they were Roman soldiers appearing in the public gaze!
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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Look at how we interpret young men at a gymnasium differently than ancient people. If a man took Plato to a "gymnasium" today - to watch a high school basketball - the philosopher would marvel at the clothing the youths were wearing. it would be surprising. It would be like a scene from Borat. Plato would be like "hey I was expecting to see naked boys." The parents would probably call the police.
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