The seven veils.

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rakovsky
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Re: The seven veils.

Post by rakovsky » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:09 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:35 am
Those who want to present the Letter as an authentic document have the burden of proving it is.
No we don't. Who the fuck are you? Who made you judge, jury and decider? A document was found in a monastery. The document was left in the monastery and was seen why a leading opponent of the discovery. It was there - at least until 1984. It's a real text. Why the fuck do I have to justify that the document was there or ancient? That's on you people.

It's like the moon landing. There was a landing ... on the moon. NASA doesn't have to prove that it wasn't a fake because some asshole on a blog doubts its authenticity. People were starting this up again when the Chinese landed on the moon the other day. There's a fine line of separation between Peter Jeffery and Steve Avery.
The one presenting a thesis (eg. the document's authenticity) has the burden of proving their claims (the landings) to the public.
The US (NASA) and the Chinese have the burden of showing that the moon landing was real. For most people, the burden is proven, using NASA's authority as an agency, testimony of witnesses (astronauts and technicians), moon rocks, etc.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com

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Re: The seven veils.

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:14 am

The one presenting a thesis (eg. the document's authenticity) has the burden of proving their claims (the landings) to the public.
The document exists or existed. There's no question as to it having been 'faked' as Quesnell implied in his original paper - i.e. being non-existent. Surely you can't expect archaeologists to have to write formal papers arguing on behalf of them NOT planting the evidence they uncovered. This is nonsense. A manuscript was found in a monastery. It's not up to the discoverer to prove that he didn't forge the text. You are a complete idiot.
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Re: The seven veils.

Post by Peter Kirby » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:20 am

Do any of the books that you found cite ancient records or writers?
Certainly this is referring to a practice used in 18th c. Italy, not something done in the ancient Mediterranean.
It turns out it comes from 18th c. and 19th English literature, and a search of the church fathers didn't bring anything up for me.
When I go track down different leads, they fall apart too, like the 7 veils reference.
Ben kicked us off with "Peter Jeffrey's argument that the 'seven veils' mentioned in the Mar Saba letter are an anachronistic callback to Oscar Wilde's treatment of Salome." This argument you have not defended.

You seem to have shifted to an argument from saying that you can't find ancient references to "seven veils," therefore forgery.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown

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Re: The seven veils.

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:45 am

And it is worth noting - to be objective - that most recent forgeries viz. the Gospel of Jesus's Wife, various 'Qumran' fragments - tend to be 'UNprovenanced' discoveries - i.e. where a fragment 'pops up' without giving us any details of its discovery. I am sure there are examples of 'provenanced' forgeries. But by recent history the Mar Saba document (by its name alone) has a clear provenance. There is a documented date for the discovery. We know who the discoverer was. These details distinguish it from let's say the Gospel of Jesus's Wife and the rest. And it is interesting that we tend to focus our attention on discoveries that challenge our assumptions about early Christianity. Doesn't it stand to reason that at least some of the fragments used to reconstruct the history of the NT canon are also forgeries. I mean the same motivation exists within every human being, the same possibility for forgery exists regardless of whether or not the discovery is of known or unknown texts. But we spend all our time on THIS text and not - let's say 'First Century Mark.' There's an agenda there, there's deception, misrepresentation etc. And above all else it was an unprovenanced discovery. Why not make the same or stronger claims about THAT Markan text? Why isn't there demands to test the ink on Evangelical Textual Criticism? I think we know the answer.

As a discovery though - in retrospect - the Mar Saba document stands up as exactly what you want in a discovery. Known discoverer. Check. Provenance known. Check. Manuscript available for examination. Check. An account of how and when the discovery was discovered. Check. It really stands up quite well in retrospect.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Ken Olson
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Re: The seven veils.

Post by Ken Olson » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:54 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:06 pm
I have about as much interest in debating the (in)authenticity of Secret Mark as I do of having my eyeballs removed with a pen knife.
I can't imagine why.

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Re: The seven veils.

Post by Roger Viklund » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:16 pm

Scott Brown's view of the sevenfold veil in “Behind the Seven Veils 1”.
For the purposes of understanding the Letter to Theodore it is not necessary to be this precise. It is sufficient to realize that Strom. VI.8.68.1–3 presents the notion of Christ‘s unveiling of progressively higher levels of divinity within the immaterial cosmos through allegorical explanations of the Scriptures, an initiation into the great mysteries that corresponds to the gnostic soul‘s seven-stage progression through the Ogdoad in the afterlife. The letter evokes the same set of associations with its description of how the exposition of the mystic gospel‘s logia leads the hearers into the innermost sanctuary of the sevenfold veiled truth. This is the language of early Jewish and Christian mysticism, not a modern allusion to Oscar Wilde‘s play Salomé and its dance of the seven veils.58 A comparable mystical tabernacle theology occurs in the Dead Sea Scrolls, especially the Songs of the Sabbath Sacrifice, which envisions the adept ascending through a series of seven temples/heavens in his approach to the divine throne and speaks of the ―seven mysteries of knowledge in the wonderful mystery of the seven regions of the hol[y of holies.]‖ (4Q 403 1 II, 27).
And note 58 leading to note 51:
The veiling is temple imagery rather than clothing imagery, and involves no human, so Jeffery‘s perception of an allusion to the dance of the seven veils in Oscar Wilde‘s play Salomé (Unveiled, 227–31) makes little sense, particularly in view of the fact that the Salome mentioned in the letter‘s second gospel quotation (III.16) is the disciple Salome (called a woman, γυνή, in 15:40), not the unnamed little girl (κοράσιον) who dances for Herod in Mark 6:22.

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Re: The seven veils.

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:53 pm

The reason why the Mar Saba situation is valuable for scholarship is that confirms what isn't explicit with other texts - because of the convention associated with them. That is, none of the material we inherited from antiquity is entirely reliable. We just presume it is so because generations of Christians before us trusted these texts. But they are all compromised in one way or another. We shouldn't trust any text. Not the gospels, not Paul, not the New Testament, not the early Fathers. Between us and them is corruption - corruption that settled into the MSS along the way. If you can accept that all texts have uncertainties built into them you've passed the Mar Saba threshold.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: The seven veils.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:20 pm

Roger Viklund wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:16 pm
Scott Brown's view of the sevenfold veil in “Behind the Seven Veils 1”.
For the purposes of understanding the Letter to Theodore it is not necessary to be this precise. It is sufficient to realize that Strom. VI.8.68.1–3 presents the notion of Christ‘s unveiling of progressively higher levels of divinity within the immaterial cosmos through allegorical explanations of the Scriptures, an initiation into the great mysteries that corresponds to the gnostic soul‘s seven-stage progression through the Ogdoad in the afterlife. The letter evokes the same set of associations with its description of how the exposition of the mystic gospel‘s logia leads the hearers into the innermost sanctuary of the sevenfold veiled truth. This is the language of early Jewish and Christian mysticism, not a modern allusion to Oscar Wilde‘s play Salomé and its dance of the seven veils.58 A comparable mystical tabernacle theology occurs in the Dead Sea Scrolls, especially the Songs of the Sabbath Sacrifice, which envisions the adept ascending through a series of seven temples/heavens in his approach to the divine throne and speaks of the ―seven mysteries of knowledge in the wonderful mystery of the seven regions of the hol[y of holies.]‖ (4Q 403 1 II, 27).
And note 58 leading to note 51:
The veiling is temple imagery rather than clothing imagery, and involves no human, so Jeffery‘s perception of an allusion to the dance of the seven veils in Oscar Wilde‘s play Salomé (Unveiled, 227–31) makes little sense, particularly in view of the fact that the Salome mentioned in the letter‘s second gospel quotation (III.16) is the disciple Salome (called a woman, γυνή, in 15:40), not the unnamed little girl (κοράσιον) who dances for Herod in Mark 6:22.
Thank you.
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Re: The seven veils.

Post by DCHindley » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:16 pm

References to seven veils or curtains goes back to ancient times (magic spells), and to illustrate that these concepts of veils hiding truths was known in Theosophic/Masonic/Indian circles BEFORE Oscar Wilde published his play, here are a few examples I threw together around 2012 from internet searches. For the author of the Letter to Theodore to refer to these as well may tell us nothing more than that they drew from the same general theosophic world view that embodied the "spirit of that age." "New Age" type beliefs existed all through history.

A: Ancient Christian Magic: Coptic texts of ritual power, by Marvin W. Meyer & Richard Smith (Princeton University Press, 1999):

70. Spell, with Gnostic characteristics, to protect from filthy demons
Text: London Oriental Manuscript 5987
Description- papyrus, 77 3/4 x 5 3/8 in. [unfortunately, undated]
Yoel Thiel Misiael Mioel Daithe Eleluth Ermukratos Adonai Ermusur, the invisible one within the seven veils, by him stand the seven radiant lights Sarthiel, Tharbioth and Urach and Thurach and Armuser and Eiecha, the seven inexpressible lights, the sixty golden lamps which burn in the tabernacle of the father.

You are Akramiel, Prakuel, the salvation of Israel. You are the salvation of the father. You are ..., the salvation of. . . . You are the father in whom . . . Ermukraton . . Ermusur invisible Bainchooch, O one within the seven veils.
73. Erotic spell of Cyprian of Antioch
Text: Heidelberg Kopt. 684
Description- book with sixteen pages of rag paper; the pages are 14.3 x 9 cm; pages 1-13 contain the spell of Cyprian, and the last three pages are blank; eleventh century.

According to legend, Cyprian of Antioch tried to employ magic [spells] in order to seduce a Christian virgin named Justina. As the story goes, he failed in his attempts, and so he converted to Christianity, abandoned his books of ritual power, and eventually became bishop of Antioch. Some traditions suggest that both Cyprian and Justina were martyred during the persecution of the Roman emperor Diocletian (ruled 285-305). The translation given here is of the spell of Cyprian. See also Howard M. Jackson, “A Contribution toward an Edition of the Confession of Cyprian of Antioch."
So I reproved my wrath [at not being able to seduce the Christian virgin Justina through his knowledge of magic spells], laid my anger aside, and allayed my rage with great humility. Then I got to my feet, turned my face to the west, stretched my right hand out to heaven, cleansed myself of the dirt on my feet, snorted, and directed these spells at heaven, to the tabernacle of the father within the seven veils.


B: Wikipedia article: Ramalinga Swamigal (Arutprakasa Vallalar Chidambaram Ramalingam, 5 October 1823 – 30 January 1874), a Tamil holy man. [His name, Ramalingam, FWIW, means something like "Rama's Penis" - see the description of the 7th veil]
Around 1870 he established the Sathya Gnana Sabai, [meaning] hall of True Wisdom Forum, and ensur[ed] it was entirely secular. … He said that our soul is blinded by seven veils. [At his Forum, in symbolic representation, t]here are seven cotton fabric screens, representing the seven factors that prevent a soul from realizing its true nature.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramalinga_Swamigal

"Universal Fraternity of Universal Right of Oneness of Soulful Love and Compassion of all Living Beings Souls, as revealed and flourished by Arutperunjothi Ramalinga Vallalar," by Arul Thiru Gnanansabandram in Mettukupan [= Mettukuppam, Okkiyam Thuraipakkam, Tamil Nadu, India] 2006
In Vadalur [Tamil Nadu, India], Vallalar raised Sathya gnana sabha [Hall of True Wisdom Forum], where god is seen as grace light behind seven veils of ageless ignorance, each proclaiming a philosophy. Veil after veil, slowly unveiled, God’ glows in matchless sheen. Burning bright to keep in flight the devotee’s hesitancy and hug soul spark into his clasp.

Vallalar glimpsed divinity in vortex of mind, burning with leaping flames of million suns. Arutperum Jothi Vallalar alone revealed to the world, gods dazzling abode in the midst of consciousness. A quarter golden, the rest flaming white color of flag and seven veils behind light……
• the first veil dark dark, irrevocably dark Maya Shakti
• But the gifted having it lifted see the blaze of blue in the second veil Kriya Shakti, oceaning all the wealth of skies and seas
• and reach the third all green,…Parasakthi…GREEN with creativity ,sustaining all universes,
• and flamboyant red ,the fourth veil, bellowing destruction of all the mounts of past presences on earth ….. red veil ..Ichcha Sakhti.
• And golden yellow [fifth] veil Gnana Sakthi, fluttering charms and enchainment of jubilee, deliverance, wisdom garbed.
• And the sixth milky white veil ….Aathisakthi, pristine white a blaze of furied purity
• and last [seventh] veil mixed screen color veil……. Chit Sakthi, envelopes the Throbbing soul into its fold.
http://www.ambalamyoga.org/On%20Vallala ... 20file.pdf

H P Blatavsky, "Coming Events Foretold," The Theosophist, Vol. III, No. 10, July, 1882, pp. 243-244

[Court Deposition by the principal disciple of Ramalingam that he foretold the establishment of the Theosophical Society:]
… During the latter part of his visible earthly career, he often expressed his bitter sorrow for this sad state of things, and repeatedly exclaimed: “You are not fit to become members of this Society of Universal Brotherhood. The real members of that Brotherhood are living far away, towards the North of India. You do not listen to me. You do not follow the principles of my teachings. You seem to be determined not to be convinced by me. Yet the time is not far off, when persons from Russia, America (these two countries were always named), and other foreign lands will come to India and preach to you this same doctrine of universal brotherhood. Then only, will you know and appreciate the grand truths that I am now vainly trying to make you accept. You will soon find that the brothers who live in the far north will work a great many wonders in India, and thus confer incalculable benefits upon this our country.” This prophecy has, in my opinion, just been literally fulfilled. The fact, that the Mahatmas in the North exist, is no new idea to us, Hindus; and the strange fact that the advent of Madame Blavatsky and Colonel Olcott from Russia and America [respectively] was foretold several years before they came to India, is an incontrovertible proof that my Guru was in communication with those Mahatmas under whose directions the Theosophical Society was subsequently founded.
Tholuvore Velayudham Mudaliar, F.T.S.
“The official position of Vellayu Pandit as one of the Pandits of the Presidency College-is an ample guarantee of his respectability and trustworthiness.”
G. Muttuswamy Chetty, Judge of the Small Cause Court, Madras,
Vice-President of the Madras Theosophical Socy.
… This is one of those cases of previous foretelling of a coming event, which is least of all open to suspicion of bad faith. The honourable character of the witness, the wide publicity of his Guru’s announcements, and the impossibility that he could have got from public rumour, or the journals of the day, any intimation that the Theosophical Society would be formed and would operate in India — all these conspire to support the inference that Ramalingam Yogi was verily in the counsels of those who ordered us to found the Society.
http://www.scribd.com/Athanor/d/3598070 ... 3#download

C: "The Kabalah And The Kabalists" by Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, Lucifer, May, 1892:
Kabalah, as a word, is derived from the root Kbl (Kebel) "to hand over," or "to receive" orally. It is erroneous to say, as Kenneth Mackenzie does in his Royal Masonic Cyclopædia, that "the doctrine of the Kabalah refers to the system handed down by oral transmission, and is nearly allied to tradition"; for in this sentence the first proposition only is true, while the second is not. It is not allied to "tradition" but to the seven veils or the seven truths, orally revealed at Initiation. Of these methods, pertaining to the universal pictorial languages--meaning by "pictorial" any cipher, number, symbol, or other glyph that can be represented, whether objectively or subjectively (mentally)--three only exist at present in the Jewish system. Thus, if Kabalah as a word is Hebrew, the system itself is no more Jewish than is sunlight; it is universal.
http://www.blavatsky.org/blavatsky/arts ... alists.htm

D: Oscar Wilde's play Salome was published in 1891.

DCH

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Re: The seven veils.

Post by Peter Kirby » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:28 pm

DCHindley wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:16 pm
References to seven veils or curtains goes back to ancient times (magic spells), and to illustrate that these concepts of veils hiding truths was known in Theosophic/Masonic/Indian circles BEFORE Oscar Wilde published his play, here are a few examples I threw together around 2012 from internet searches. For the author of the Letter to Theodore to refer to these as well may tell us nothing more than that they drew from the same general theosophic world view that embodied the "spirit of that age." "New Age" type beliefs existed all through history.

A: Ancient Christian Magic: Coptic texts of ritual power, by Marvin W. Meyer & Richard Smith (Princeton University Press, 1999):

70. Spell, with Gnostic characteristics, to protect from filthy demons
Text: London Oriental Manuscript 5987
Description- papyrus, 77 3/4 x 5 3/8 in. [unfortunately, undated]
Yoel Thiel Misiael Mioel Daithe Eleluth Ermukratos Adonai Ermusur, the invisible one within the seven veils, by him stand the seven radiant lights Sarthiel, Tharbioth and Urach and Thurach and Armuser and Eiecha, the seven inexpressible lights, the sixty golden lamps which burn in the tabernacle of the father.

You are Akramiel, Prakuel, the salvation of Israel. You are the salvation of the father. You are ..., the salvation of. . . . You are the father in whom . . . Ermukraton . . Ermusur invisible Bainchooch, O one within the seven veils.
73. Erotic spell of Cyprian of Antioch
Text: Heidelberg Kopt. 684
Description- book with sixteen pages of rag paper; the pages are 14.3 x 9 cm; pages 1-13 contain the spell of Cyprian, and the last three pages are blank; eleventh century.

According to legend, Cyprian of Antioch tried to employ magic [spells] in order to seduce a Christian virgin named Justina. As the story goes, he failed in his attempts, and so he converted to Christianity, abandoned his books of ritual power, and eventually became bishop of Antioch. Some traditions suggest that both Cyprian and Justina were martyred during the persecution of the Roman emperor Diocletian (ruled 285-305). The translation given here is of the spell of Cyprian. See also Howard M. Jackson, “A Contribution toward an Edition of the Confession of Cyprian of Antioch."
So I reproved my wrath [at not being able to seduce the Christian virgin Justina through his knowledge of magic spells], laid my anger aside, and allayed my rage with great humility. Then I got to my feet, turned my face to the west, stretched my right hand out to heaven, cleansed myself of the dirt on my feet, snorted, and directed these spells at heaven, to the tabernacle of the father within the seven veils.
Thanks for sharing this, DCH.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown

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