where the Talmud denies the historical existence of Jesus

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Giuseppe
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where the Talmud denies the historical existence of Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:29 am


But there is a tradition: On the Sabbath of the Passover feast Jeschu was hunged. But the herald went forth before him for the space of forty days, while he cried: 'Jeschu goeth forth to be executed because he has practised sorcery and seduced Israel and estranged them from God. Let any one who can bring forward any justifying plea for him come and give information concerning it.' But no justifying plea was found for him, and so he was hung on the Sabbath of the Passover festival. Ulla has said, But dost thou think that he belongs to those for whom a justifying plea is sought? He was a very seducer, and the All-merciful has said [Deut. xiii. 8]: 'Thou shall not spare him, nor conceal him.' However, in Jeschu's case it was somewhat different, for his place was near those in power."[2]

http://gnosis.org/library/grs-mead/jesu ... /ch10.html


the last proposition:
However, in Jeschu's case it was somewhat different, for his place was near those in power
....to my knowledge, is translated (I should report later the source from Eric Laupot's book) so:
However, in Jeschu's case it was somewhat different, for his place was near the kingdom
What does it mean to be ''near the kingdom'' ?

I can only think about the celestial kingdom, out of the gate of which Jesus died according to Hebrews 13:12:

And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

The gate is also found in the Psalm 24:9:
Lift up your heads, you gates; lift them up, you ancient doors, that the King of glory may come in.
Insofar the kingdom is the higher heavens, then Jeshu's place, according to the talmudist, was in the lower heavens, in the archontic territory where he suffered directly by hand of demons.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: where the Talmud denies the historical existence of Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:09 am

So Eric Laupot confirms that "near the kingdom" is a reference to a celestial kingdom:
Do you think that Jesus was a revolutionary for whom a defense could be made?
Did he not try to draw Jews into paganism, and about him God said: “Don’t spare
[his life], don’t hide him [Deuteronomy 13.9].” But with Jesus it was different—he
had the right to power because, [as he had said], “I, Jesus the Nazorean, am
bringing the war to the Romans [literally, ‘I am near the present kingdom’—that is
to say, the Roman Empire]” (translation based on Prosper Ben-Ezra’s).
Professor David Weiss Halivni in a personal communication with this author suggests a similar
meaning of “near the present kingdom”—an expression that is otherwise incomprehensible. Still,
Ulla words this phrase a bit vaguely because he lived under Roman occupation in the land of
Israel and could not speak his mind freely (see chapter 5).
Indeed, there were many other words Jesus could have chosen to describe the Roman
Empire or the Romans. Yet he selected one in particular, “the present kingdom.” In so doing he
seems to have been implying that as an up-and-coming Jewish king and guerrilla leader he was
also near God’s future kingdom, Israel
.

(The Identity of the Historical Jesus and the Founding of Christianity by Roman Counterintelligence, p.66, my bold)


Obviously I think that the expression can be meant only as a reference to the mythological nature of the Jesus. He can't be accused for these things (idolatry, sediction, sorcery, etc) since he was not on this world but near the next world. Between the earth and the moon.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

andrewcriddle
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Re: where the Talmud denies the historical existence of Jesus

Post by andrewcriddle » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:12 am

It is unclear to me how the Talmud could claim that Jesus was executed by the Jewish authorities, if it held that Jesus had no historical existence.

Andrew Criddle

Giuseppe
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Re: where the Talmud denies the historical existence of Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:14 am

andrewcriddle wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:12 am
It is unclear to me how the Talmud could claim that Jesus was executed by the Jewish authorities, if it held that Jesus had no historical existence.

Andrew Criddle
The Ulla's Question is:
But dost thou think that he belongs to those for whom a justifying plea is sought? He was a very seducer, and the All-merciful has said [Deut. xiii. 8]: 'Thou shall not spare him, nor conceal him.'
Here Jesus is meant as a historical person, a mere seducer, etc. He is not concealed.

The answer seems to deny this possibility (that Jesus was a mere man):
However, in Jeschu's case it was somewhat different,
...since Jesus is placed in another realm, not on this earth:
for his place was near the kingdom.
the ''Kingdom'' is a celestial one.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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DCHindley
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Re: where the Talmud denies the historical existence of Jesus

Post by DCHindley » Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:24 am

I think you need to find out more about the word translated "place." I believe the gemera is in Aramaic, but that is beyond my knowledge level. However, with a little digging, you may find a commentary on this.

DCH

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Secret Alias
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Re: where the Talmud denies the historical existence of Jesus

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:15 am

This isn't complicated:

ישו דקרוב למלכות הוה

Isu was close to the (Roman) government (kingdom).

If a heavenly kingdom was meant (which the context does not seem to allow) a near parallel might be:

Οὐ μακρὰν εἶ ἀπὸ τῆς βασιλείας

But the gospel specifies it's the kingdom 'of God' (τοῦ Θεοῦ). The passage in the Talmud is clearly dealing with the secular government. Perhaps there is an intention play on Christian propaganda regarding 'the kingdom' (i.e. the kingdom of heaven). But clearly the statement as it stands implies that he was close to the Roman government.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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DCHindley
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Re: where the Talmud denies the historical existence of Jesus

Post by DCHindley » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:03 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:15 am
This isn't complicated:

ישו דקרוב למלכות הוה

Isu was close to the (Roman) government (kingdom).

If a heavenly kingdom was meant (which the context does not seem to allow) a near parallel might be:

Οὐ μακρὰν εἶ ἀπὸ τῆς βασιλείας

But the gospel specifies it's the kingdom 'of God' (τοῦ Θεοῦ). The passage in the Talmud is clearly dealing with the secular government. Perhaps there is an intention play on Christian propaganda regarding 'the kingdom' (i.e. the kingdom of heaven). But clearly the statement as it stands implies that he was close to the Roman government.
Going off of Google translate (modern Hebrew) it seems that the meaning could be He was close to achieving the kingdom. He was guilty of "blashphemy" (for uttering the Name perhaps), but the Romans executed him for exercising an attempt to claim the leadership of an independent kingdom (or simply not rejecting such an offer from frustrated Judeans), thus being close to seizing the kingdom (like Antigonus II had years before. Romans don't want stuff like that to tempt Parthian intervention as they did in Antigonus' day).

DCH

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