Romans 1:1-5

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MrMacSon
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Romans 1:1-5

Post by MrMacSon » Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:51 pm

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Romans 1:1-5 (NRSV)


1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be Son of God with power according to the spirit[a] of holiness by resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for the sake of his name

[a'] or, 4 ... declared to be Son of God with power according to my spirit in the gospel of holiness by resurrection from the dead
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Do these opening verses / prologue (?) give the 'ahistoric' game away? -

  • 1 Paul ... set apart for the gospel of God

  • 2 "which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures"

    (I presume 'he' and 'his' should have capitalised/ uppercase His to reflect God) thus -

    "which He [God] promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy scriptures"

  • 3 "the gospel concerning [H]is Son, who was descended from David 'according to the flesh' 4a and was declared to be Son of God with power according to 'the spirit of holiness' .."
  • or, 4a' "declared to be Son of God with power according to my spirit in the gospel of holiness"
  • 4b "... according to the spirit of holiness by resurrection from the dead"
  • 4 in toto, "declared to be Son of God with power according to my spirit in the gospel of holiness by resurrection from the dead"

  • 5b "... for the sake of his [Jesus'] name"

The prose strikes me as a theological narrative based on a desire to declare an entirely resurrected spirit, not of a man perceived to have been remembered as partly based on narratives about being revered as a resurrected spirit ...

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Bernard Muller
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Re: Romans 1:1-5

Post by Bernard Muller » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:00 pm

I do not know where the NRSV found "the gospel" in Ro 1:3. These words are not in the Greek text.
The usually close to the Greek translation of the YLT read:

1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, having been separated to the good news of God --

1:2 which He announced before through His prophets in holy writings --

1:3 concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh,

1:4 who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord

1:5 through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of his name

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

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MrMacSon
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Re: Romans 1:1-5

Post by MrMacSon » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:19 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:00 pm
I do not know where the NRSV found "the gospel" in Ro 1:3. These words are not in the Greek text.
Good point Bernard: I got it from https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV

Bernard Muller wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:00 pm
The usually close to the Greek translation of the YLT reads:

1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, having been separated to the good news of God --

1:2 which He announced before through His prophets in holy writings --

1:3 concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh,

1:4 who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord

1:5 through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of his name

Cordially, Bernard
"by the rising again from the dead" (1:4) is interesting.

Cheers.

Bernard Muller
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Re: Romans 1:1-5

Post by Bernard Muller » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:21 am

I do not think the Greek text has "again" in Ro 1:4.
I suppose the "again" means "(alive) again". That's probably why the word appears in the YLT translation.

Cordially, Bernard
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DCHindley
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Re: Romans 1:1-5

Post by DCHindley » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:24 pm

I think there is an error on the Bible-Hubwebsite.

Per Bibleworks 8, Rom 1:1-10 (they call it NRS to keep it down to three letters):

NRS Romans 1:1 Paul, a servanta of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures,
3 the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh
4 and was declared to be Son of God with power according to the spiritb of holiness by resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for the sake of his name,
6 including yourselves who are called to belong to Jesus Christ,
7 To all God's beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed throughout the world.
9 For God, whom I serve with my spirit by announcing the gospelc of his Son, is my witness that without ceasing I remember you always in my prayers,
10 asking that by God's will I may somehow at last succeed in coming to you.

a) Romans 1:1 Gk slave [i.e., doulos]
b) Romans 1:4 Or Spirit [the emphasis is on the capitalization of Spirit, as in 3rd person of trinity. As for the error in the webpage here, keep in mind that the term "Gospel of Holiness" is especially near and dear to members of the Church of the Nazarene.]
c) Romans 1:9 Gk my spirit in the gospel [i.e., "by announcing" is an embellishment by the translators]

Scribal err-ahs, are everywhere-ahs ... :wtf:

DCH

Bertie
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Re: Romans 1:1-5

Post by Bertie » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:55 pm

>>> gospel
The word is εὐαγγέλιον, the same thing that is either translated as "gospel" or "(good) news" everywhere in early Christian writings.

>>> again
Agree that this word is spurious translation.

>>> by announcing the gospel
I don't know that embellishment is the right word; ἐν + dative can potentially signify instrument, means, cause, or manner, and it seems one or more of those is what the translators in question are doing.

>> textual variants
The only translatable variant (in NA 28 anyway) in Romans 1:1-9 is "Christ Jesus" versus "Jesus Christ" in the first sentence.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Romans 1:1-5

Post by MrMacSon » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:18 pm

ok, aside from a few words that have incidentally crept in, do people think Rom 1:1-5 is more declarative of a resurrected spirit than a resurrected man?

Michael BG
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Re: Romans 1:1-5

Post by Michael BG » Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:43 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:18 pm
ok, aside from a few words that have incidentally crept in, do people think Rom 1:1-5 is more declarative of a resurrected spirit than a resurrected man?
When I was a Christian, Roms. 1:4 was one of my favourite Pauline verses.
τοῦ ὁρισθέντος υἱοῦ θεοῦ ἐν δυνάμει κατὰ πνεῦμα ἁγιωσύνης ἐξ ἀναστάσεως νεκρῶν, Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν,
“the appointed Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord”

My understanding of this is that Jesus became Son of God in heaven by being appointed to the position by God via God’s spirit, when he was resurrected.

From 1 Cor. 15:40 Paul states his belief that there are physical bodies of the flesh and celestial bodies in heaven. And from 1 Cor. 15:45-49 that Jesus Christ has a spiritual body and is in heaven. Paul believes that Christians would when the end of time comes also give up their physical bodies of the flesh and have them replaced with spiritual bodies and they would then be in heaven with God and Jesus Christ.

Therefore, for Paul the resurrected Jesus Christ is a celestial being with a spiritual body.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Romans 1:1-5

Post by MrMacSon » Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:51 pm

Michael BG wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:43 pm
MrMacSon wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:18 pm
ok, aside from a few words that have incidentally crept in, do people think Rom 1:1-5 is more declarative of a resurrected spirit than a resurrected man?
When I was a Christian, Roms. 1:4 was one of my favourite Pauline verses.
τοῦ ὁρισθέντος υἱοῦ θεοῦ ἐν δυνάμει κατὰ πνεῦμα ἁγιωσύνης ἐξ ἀναστάσεως νεκρῶν, Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν,
“the appointed Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord”

My understanding of this is that Jesus became Son of God in heaven by being appointed to the position by God via God’s spirit, when he was resurrected.

From 1 Cor. 15:40 Paul states his belief that there are physical bodies of the flesh and celestial bodies in heaven. And from 1 Cor. 15:45-49 that Jesus Christ has a spiritual body and is in heaven. Paul believes that Christians would when the end of time comes also give up their physical bodies of the flesh and have them replaced with spiritual bodies and they would then be in heaven with God and Jesus Christ.

Therefore, for Paul the resurrected Jesus Christ is a celestial being with a spiritual body.
Thanks Michael.

1 Cor 15:49b - "so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man," or "so let us bear the image of the heavenly man."

I think Romans 1:4's "according to the Spirit of holiness" is key too.

Cheers.

Bernard Muller
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Re: Romans 1:1-5

Post by Bernard Muller » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:01 am

τοῦ ὁρισθέντος υἱοῦ θεοῦ ἐν δυνάμει κατὰ πνεῦμα ἁγιωσύνης ἐξ ἀναστάσεως νεκρῶν, Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν,
“the appointed Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord”
I don't think "appointed" is the right translation. "Marked out" (as in YLT & Darby) or "defined" might be what Paul intended to be understood.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

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