Did Justin Martyr use Pauline epistles?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
bcedaifu
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Re: Did Justin Martyr use Pauline epistles?

Post by bcedaifu » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:42 am

ficino wrote:I'm not sure I understand your last sentence right, because in it you seem to take back your view that Paul follows and corrects Justin and that we are justified in reaching this conclusion.
I am insecure about proclaiming that the text of Dialogue with Trypho "proves" that Justin did not know Paul's letter to the foolish Galatians. I am much less secure (even more apprehensive), since this discussion began, claiming that neither author had read the other's manuscript, in view of the overlap text. The possibility that one or both authors did know of the other's text can not be excluded, in my opinion.

I am most comfortable concluding that if Justin Martyr had a copy of Galatians before him, his text doesn't demonstrate that fact, and conversely if someone had a gun pointed to my head, with a command, pick one or the other to go first, else die, then, I would pick Dialogue with Trypho to have preceded Letter to Galatians, only because of the "faith vs. law" business. However, I don't have a gun pointed at me and I don't honestly know which came first. I can understand that the vast majority of folks believe that Paul wrote first, and he may have, but, I don't observe the evidence of it in the writings of Justin Martyr. I also don't think it is correct to argue that Paul MUST have written later than Justin, simply because Justin fails to cite Paul, or use his arguments.

I learned a lot from you. Thanks.

ficino
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Re: Did Justin Martyr use Pauline epistles?

Post by ficino » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:40 am

I learned a lot, too!

Docphin
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Re: Did Justin Martyr use Pauline epistles?

Post by Docphin » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:35 pm

What if Justin Martyr did refer to Paul but using another name, specifically, Simon Magus. And Justin was so opposed to Simon Magus (Paul) that he criticized him rather than adored him. Paul was antimonian, paul talked about the god of this world deceiving others, he was a gnostic talking about sophia (wisdom mythology), and the cosmic Christ, and the All, etc. All the gnostics (Marcion, Valentinius, etc.) claimed to be subdisciples of Paul.

Then subsequent to Simon Magus (Paul) the gnostic and Justin the protoorthodox, the later church fathers, maybe clement of alexandria, or someone like him, who adored gnostics, invented the Acts of the Apostles, to unite followers of gnostic Paul with followers of Judaizing Peter.

The clementine homilies have been presented as evidence that Simon magus was a cypher for Paul. And if one compares what Paul wrote to gnostic beliefs, for example, fallen sophia, demiurge (“god of this world”), etc., then there is not much difference between them.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Did Justin Martyr use Pauline epistles?

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:32 pm

What if Justin Martyr did refer to Paul but using another name, specifically, Simon Magus.
WTF?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Docphin
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Re: Did Justin Martyr use Pauline epistles?

Post by Docphin » Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:19 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:32 pm
What if Justin Martyr did refer to Paul but using another name, specifically, Simon Magus.
WTF?
After my post above I perused the other posts in this thread and discovered that somebody other than me posited that Simon Magus and Paul were the same person. They referenced “Roger Parvus: A Simonian Origin for Christianity” who does a really good job explaining it.

It makes a lot of sense out of the many contradictions presented in the New Testament canon.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Did Justin Martyr use Pauline epistles?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:30 am

Docphin wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:19 am
Secret Alias wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:32 pm
What if Justin Martyr did refer to Paul but using another name, specifically, Simon Magus.
WTF?
After my post above I perused the other posts in this thread and discovered that somebody other than me posited that Simon Magus and Paul were the same person. They referenced “Roger Parvus: A Simonian Origin for Christianity” who does a really good job explaining it.
This is what Roger Parvus has had to say more recently about his Simonian scenario:

I had misgivings about the hypothesis even before I finished the series, but two years of mulling it over has left me even less enamoured. I am still quite convinced that the Vision of Isaiah is the correct background for several key passages: 1 Cor. 2:6-9; Phil. 2:6-11; 2 Cor. 12:1-10. I have come to doubt, however, that these passages belong to the earliest parts of the letter collection. My changed understanding of 2 Cor. 12:1-10 in particular has led me to think it more plausible that the bulk of the letters was composed not by Simon but by later followers of his who converted to Christianity sometime between 70 and 135 CE. In my revised scenario Paul, not Simon, is the author of the original letters; and the bulk of the additional material — material that turned letters into epistles — was likely composed by a circle of Saturnilians, a community founded by the ex-Simonian Saturnilus of Antioch. Proto-orthodox input consisted of some final sanitizing touch-ups.

ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

davidmartin
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Re: Did Justin Martyr use Pauline epistles?

Post by davidmartin » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:56 am

That's a more measured approach from Roger there
The idea Simon = Paul is only superficially appealing but i think it falls apart
Way too many differences!

Joseph D. L.
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Re: Did Justin Martyr use Pauline epistles?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:52 am

davidmartin wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:56 am
That's a more measured approach from Roger there
The idea Simon = Paul is only superficially appealing but i think it falls apart
Way too many differences!
Simon aligns well with what is known about ben Stada. But kinking them together has disastrous consequences for how we understand Christianity as ben Stada was active around 80-120 ad. Of course I'm in favour with this time frame, but you can imagine that many people would have a problem with it!

I think how Simon is treated in the Clementine literature does make him a proxy for Paul, so even early Christians did identify the two figures together as one.

The Talmud also records a somewhat marginal figure who after converting to Judaism was tasked with raising money but when it was found that he had stolen it was miraculously struck blind, and seeked shelter at the alter of a heathen god, after which his blindness was cured. The account seems suspiciously similar to both Simon and Paul.

davidmartin
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Re: Did Justin Martyr use Pauline epistles?

Post by davidmartin » Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:43 am

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Simon aligns well with what is known about ben Stada. But kinking them together has disastrous consequences for how we understand Christianity as ben Stada was active around 80-120 ad. Of course I'm in favour with this time frame, but you can imagine that many people would have a problem with it!

I think how Simon is treated in the Clementine literature does make him a proxy for Paul, so even early Christians did identify the two figures together as one.

The Talmud also records a somewhat marginal figure who after converting to Judaism was tasked with raising money but when it was found that he had stolen it was miraculously struck blind, and seeked shelter at the alter of a heathen god, after which his blindness was cured. The account seems suspiciously similar to both Simon and Paul
well, that time frame is certainly challenging!
For the Clementines it seems as if Paul for sure was the enemy in some earlier revision and a later edition did a Simon re-write leaving traces of the original stuff in it. There's some blending of the two in there

I did not know about that Talmud ref. It does sound like Paul, who was always after donations and was certainly in a position to invest it in his own projects.
The similarity with Simon is not so good here, as he didn't steal so much as try to buy something not for sale (although he did buy Helena instead)
It sounds a bit more like Judas who one account said "They say that his eyelids swelled to such an extent that he could not see the light at all, while as for his eyes they were not visible even by a physician looking through an instrument, so far have they sunk from the surface"

I'm surprised no-one has tried to claim Judas and Paul are the same person, but i suspect that would go down less well than your alternative date for ben Stada :)

Joseph D. L.
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Re: Did Justin Martyr use Pauline epistles?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:47 pm

The parallel with Simon can be made with the Acts of Peters, wherein Simon steals money from a too trusting woman after she agrees to let him stay the night. He later tries to buy the "name of God" from Peter.
I'm surprised no-one has tried to claim Judas and Paul are the same person, but i suspect that would go down less well than your alternative date for ben Stada
Judas is a Jamesian proxy which goes along with Thomas Judas Didymus. The twins being the brothers Zebedee.

Also, from everything I've read, that date for ben Stada is the most recognized. Stada may be a derogatory wordplay on stadios, which Simon claimed to be, in much the same way bar Kochba was called bar Kosiva after his defeat. Aquila is also thought to have been a follower of ben Stada.

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