Another thing that is very strangely missing in Paul...

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
Posts: 4991
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Another thing that is very strangely missing in Paul...

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:28 am

What moved the demons in first place to kill Jesus?

His being came as a mere man? And then why didn't the demons kill other men as men, also?

Paul doesn't say.

Mythicism gives the answer: the demons killed Jesus only because they had to kill an intruder in their archontic territory, not because that particular intruder did something in more to derive particularly their attention against him.

...The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed...

(1 Cor 11:23)

Note that the historicists have to assume that Jesus did something to cause the demons to kill him precisely in the short time between the Eucharist and the death, in a time of not even a night!
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Bernard Muller
Posts: 3166
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Another thing that is very strangely missing in Paul...

Post by Bernard Muller » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:23 pm

to Giuseppe,
What moved the demons in first place to kill Jesus?
Where did you read, in Paul's epistles, demons killed Jesus?
His being came as a mere man? And then why didn't the demons kill other men as men, also?

Paul doesn't say.
For good cause: Paul never said demons killed Jesus.
Mythicism gives the answer: the demons killed Jesus only because they had to kill an intruder in their archontic territory, not because that particular intruder did something in more to derive particularly their attention against him.
Where did you get that? Even the 'Ascension of Isaiah', with all its Christian interpolations, does not say the demons killed Jesus anywhere.
...The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed...
(1 Cor 11:23)
First, this verse is most likely part of an interpolated passage (http://historical-jesus.info/co1c.html#adb). "betrayed" is inspired from the gospels, where Jesus is betrayed by Judas at night.
And into your Mythicism's answer, I do not see any betrayal.
Note that the historicists have to assume that Jesus did something to cause the demons to kill him precisely in the short time between the Eucharist and the death, in a time of not even a night!
The last supper is the Passover meal in the gospels. According to Jewish laws, that meal had to be taken at night, after sunset. Again according to the gospels, Jesus' death occurs some 21 hours later, relative to the "Eucharist", during daylight, at about 3 pm. And in the same gospels Satan, not demons, is involved in the arrest of Jesus, not the Crucifixion itself.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

Giuseppe
Posts: 4991
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Another thing that is very strangely missing in Paul...

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:31 am

Bernard,

for pure sake of discussion, even assuming rulers = Romans, can you recognize the point in the title of the thread? That Paul nowhere says what moved the killers (demons or humans) against Jesus, apart from the his being merely an intruder in the archontic territory?

Think about this: no wonder, no surprise, no miracle, no exorcism, no way to derive the attention of the killers.
Simply the his mere presence as a man.

Doesn't this sound as a 100% mythical feature?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Bernard Muller
Posts: 3166
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Another thing that is very strangely missing in Paul...

Post by Bernard Muller » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:11 am

to Giuseppe,
for pure sake of discussion, even assuming rulers = Romans, can you recognize the point in the title of the thread? That Paul nowhere says what moved the killers (demons or humans) against Jesus, apart from the his being merely an intruder in the archontic territory?
Paul did not say, in his epistles, what moved the killers against Jesus. But that does not mean Jesus had to be an intruder in the archontic territory.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

Giuseppe
Posts: 4991
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Another thing that is very strangely missing in Paul...

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:28 am

Bernard Muller wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:11 am
to Giuseppe,
for pure sake of discussion, even assuming rulers = Romans, can you recognize the point in the title of the thread? That Paul nowhere says what moved the killers (demons or humans) against Jesus, apart from the his being merely an intruder in the archontic territory?
Paul did not say, in his epistles, what moved the killers against Jesus. But that does not mean Jesus had to be an intruder in the archontic territory.
But that is the logical conclusion from the his silence. Note that even Ascension of Isaiah talked about what caused the killers to act against Jesus:

And when he had grown up, he performed great signs and miracles in the land of Israel and Jerusalem

(Asc. Is. 11:18)

Insofar Asc. Is. talks about that cause, it is a mini-Gospel. So, why was even this mini-Gospel entirely absent in Paul?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Bernard Muller
Posts: 3166
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Another thing that is very strangely missing in Paul...

Post by Bernard Muller » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:48 am

to Giuseppe,
But that is the logical conclusion from the his silence. Note that even Ascension of Isaiah talked about what caused the killers to act against Jesus:
No, logic is not evidence.
It is as logic that Paul did not want to antagonize Romans and Jews by declaring they put Jesus on the cross.
And why Jesus came to be crucified? The answer is in gMark: the "disturbance" in the temple and Jesus acclaimed by some Jews as the future king of the Jews. That would be more than enough to execute a mere man.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

Giuseppe
Posts: 4991
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Another thing that is very strangely missing in Paul...

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:01 am

Bernard Muller wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:48 am
to Giuseppe,
But that is the logical conclusion from the his silence. Note that even Ascension of Isaiah talked about what caused the killers to act against Jesus:
No, logic is not evidence.
It is as logic that Paul did not want to antagonize Romans and Jews by declaring they put Jesus on the cross.
And why Jesus came to be crucified? The answer is in gMark: the "disturbance" in the temple and Jesus acclaimed by some Jews as the future king of the Jews. That would be more than enough to execute a mere man.

Cordially, Bernard
Note that I recognize that you are perfectly correct about this point: Paul did not want to antagonize Romans and Jews by declaring they put Jesus on the cross. But at least he could mention the transcendent reasons that moved the demons to move the Romans to kill Jesus. Well: he is silent even about the reasons behind the demons to move the Romans against Jesus. And you can well concede my point, that Paul couldn't disturb any earthly authority on the earth if he mentioned what caused the demons to act against Jesus.

So again my question: why didn't he mention the cause behind the demons?

Best answer: because the reason was that the demons wanted dead Jesus since Jesus was a mere intruder in their territory.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Bernard Muller
Posts: 3166
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Another thing that is very strangely missing in Paul...

Post by Bernard Muller » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:27 am

to Giuseppe,
But at least he could mention the transcendent reasons that moved the demons to move the Romans to kill Jesus. Well: he is silent even about the reasons behind the demons to move the Romans against Jesus. And you can well concede my point, that Paul couldn't disturb any earthly authority on the earth if he mentioned what caused the demons to act against Jesus
What demons? Paul never wrote demons moved the Romans to kill Jesus.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

Giuseppe
Posts: 4991
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Another thing that is very strangely missing in Paul...

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:30 am

Bernard Muller wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:27 am
to Giuseppe,
But at least he could mention the transcendent reasons that moved the demons to move the Romans to kill Jesus. Well: he is silent even about the reasons behind the demons to move the Romans against Jesus. And you can well concede my point, that Paul couldn't disturb any earthly authority on the earth if he mentioned what caused the demons to act against Jesus
What demons? Paul never wrote demons moved the Romans to kill Jesus.

Cordially, Bernard
So do you think that ''rulers'' mean "Romans" tout court, without even a minimal allusion to demons behind the Romans?

Are you aware that your is a minority view (even in comparison to mythicism) ?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Bernard Muller
Posts: 3166
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Another thing that is very strangely missing in Paul...

Post by Bernard Muller » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:39 am

To Giuseppe
So do you think that ''rulers'' mean "Romans" tout court, without even a minimal allusion to demons behind the Romans?
Are you aware that your is a minority view (even in comparison to mythicism) ?
First I am surprised you accept the Romans killed Jesus. What happened to Jesus crucified in some lower heaven? There were no Romans in this part, as far as I know.
As for me being in a minority view, that does not bother me. But I doubt the involvement of demons in the killing of Jesus is believed by many, except by mythicists, of course.

I covered the topic of "archons" in http://historical-jesus.info/68.html
In it, I wrote: "Furthermore, according to Paul, "this age" has only one (not several) demonic entity, "the god of this age" (2 Corinthians 4:4), likely Satan (Romans 16:20). And the only time when Paul used the word "demons" ('daimonion': 1 Corinthians 10:20-21), it is about pagan gods, not subordinates of Satan.
But it is possible Paul would have thought of Satan as one of the rulers, one who could use humans from afar to kill people as in the book of Job and Paul in 1 Corinthians 5:5 "to deliver such a one [a bad Christian] to Satan for the destruction of the flesh..."
"for 1 Corinthians 2:8, Paul had human authorities in his mind, as the 'archons' who crucified Jesus, with possibly Satan "stretching out""

Cordially, , Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

Post Reply