Another mythicist Scholar: Nanine Charbonnel

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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Another mythicist Scholar: Nanine Charbonnel

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:00 am

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Another mythicist Scholar: Nanine Charbonnel

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:37 am


The approach of Gospels as Midrash is a two-fold hypothesis.
First point. The Gospels although only available in Greek were first written in Hebrew or Aramaic. This has been pointed out by catholic exegetes like Abbé Jean Carmignac (1976) or Pr. Claude Tresmontant (1983). They wrongly inferred that the original text was quite close to the historical Jesus. Only later were Bernard Dubourg (in 1987 and 1989) and Maurice Mergui able to make the appropriate assumption that the Gospels were to be read as Midrash. “The New Testament is a text of the same nature as Jewish Midrash. It is based on double entendre and deals with eschatology. It does not point at any historical facts. All its elements can be found in Jewish Midrash. Jesus’ healings are a metaphor of the admission of pagans into the [latter-day] alliance. The theme of a law whose weight would not be so heavy to bear is a key-issue in the Gospels and is already anticipated in current debates within Judaism as can be found in the Midrash of the Book of Ruth. New Testament narratives are supposed to meet some very specific requirements. Its vocabulary and arguments follow a rather strict code. Christianity developed through a univocal approach that missed the art of double entendre in the texts.''

Second point. In my book I draw a parallel between all that is said about Jesus’ actions, attitudes or feelings and ancient Jewish texts. Divided in two columns covering 43 pages I point out clear evidence that the authors of the texts always had those Jewish sources on their minds when they wrote their narratives. This Jewish material is used like playing bricks and they should not be read as historical references. And yet, unlike what was claimed on a catholic website, the edition of the Gospels was not a mere cut and paste process, it was developed in a sophisticated way by outstanding human minds. I give a specific and in-depth account of the devices to be found in the narratives and which became later like stumbling blocks in further interpretation. They usually result from a shortcoming in the handling of complex proper and figurative meanings.

http://charbonnel.populus.org/rub/4
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Another mythicist Scholar: Nanine Charbonnel

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:08 pm

The prefaction by Thomas Römer is available here.

https://patricefaliph.wordpress.com/201 ... harbonnel/

It is interesting also (my translation):
Page 370 :

Our thesis is thus:

That the person Jesus Christ, having never existed, has of course never been judged nor crucified,
But that the idea of ​​sacrifice put into action in the text about the character is fundamental, and indeed that of both an incomprehensible misfortune made to an innocent (a suffering, a chalice), and a sacrifice of atonement, in connection with the sins of the people, this atoning sacrifice being known in the Hebrew tradition, - even if the mystery religions could perhaps, once the Jewish midrash was misunderstood, add their form to the elaboration of the theology,
But above all, this thesis of expiation makes no sense in the Jewish midrash but to implement a personification of the Jewish people, which has really experienced both the catastrophe of the destruction of the Temple, and the moral betrayal of some of its elites, (betrayal which could pass, in view of many texts of the Jewish Bible, for the cause of divine chastisement), but which, as son of YHWH, can only know the inversion reversing in the last days.
For, as we shall see with the textual use of the Cross, the Crucifixion implies, in the logic of the narrative, the saving overthrow, the inversion of death in life (the Messiah being immortal, and the people too, since is supposed to have a descendance until the end of time).
This resembles the RG Price's view about GMark as allegory of the Jewish War.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Another mythicist Scholar: Nanine Charbonnel

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:18 pm

Interesting also why the author doesn't stress on Paul in the same measure of other mythicists:
. We do not know everything about the date of the writing of the Gospels, as well as the other components put (in the fourth century) in the canon of the "New Testament". Moreover, we do not know everything about their respective anteriority: the combination in the current collection (the three synoptics, then John, then Paul) probably has nothing to do with the order of their writing; we must therefore try all the other combinations,(1/John, 2/Paul, 3/synoptics ; or 1/Paul, 2/John, 3/ synoptics, etc…) ;
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Another mythicist Scholar: Nanine Charbonnel

Post by MrMacSon » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:34 pm


2017 "Lazarus: Personification of the Jewish people, and liberation of the Scriptures ... by writing?", Graphè Colloquium, University of Arras, March 2016, in review Graphè , no. 26, '' The resurrection of Lazarus '', under the dir. from J.-M. Vercruysse, Artois Presses University, 2017, pp.35-55.

See report: Laval theological and philosophical review , vol. 74, No. 1, February 2018, p. 155; excerpt from the book review by Guylain Prince, (Laval University, Quebec):
"Nanine Charbonnel comments on the text as a midrash. Based on the biblical legacy, she proposes a bold reading where Lazarus (Hebrew: God rescues) personifies the Jewish people, suffering and silenced, who welcomes the salvific action of Jesus (hb: "God saves") as the evangelist John regards as Messiah. Based on the etymology of Lazarus and on the occurrences of this name in the biblical and extrabiblical books (Numbers, Joshua, as well as 2-3-4 Maccabees), the name is enriched with nobility in the test and fidelity in suffering. Moreover, the pair of Jesus and Lazarus is also informed by that of Joshua El'azar, the successors of Moses and Aaron. So, around the Jewish revolts (70 and 135 AD), the name El'azar would have been, according to the author, [for] "symbolic bearer of Jewish identity" (p.41). Beyond the immediate fabric of the story, the Gospel of John proposes a sign (semeion) that must be deciphered and interpreted; it announces, of course, the passion of Jesus, but also especially a space where several readings are possible."

+ See report by Didier Fiévet, theological and religious studies, Protestant Institute of Theology, 2018/3 (volume 93), pages 489 to 517:
« Nanine Charbonnel, quite controversially... proposes a midrashic interpretation (the Johannine milieu being kneaded within that culture): Lazarus is a personification of the Jewish people, bound by the stripes of Scripture. His resurrection is, in a way, an evangelization of the Scriptures, liberation through a writing-narrative, constantly playing figuratively. A writing to escape the narrowness of the scriptures. A fascinating interpretation, which one can nevertheless question as to its exhaustiveness and its existential relevance. »
[NC's answer: I do not see what the "existential relevance" comes in to it when it comes to a correct reading or not. A university researcher does not have to be a lover of souls!]

http://charbonnel.populus.org/rub/2
Last edited by MrMacSon on Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

Charles Wilson
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Re: Another mythicist Scholar: Nanine Charbonnel

Post by Charles Wilson » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:51 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:34 pm
2017 "Lazarus: Personification of the Jewish people, and liberation of the Scriptures ... by writing?", Graphè Colloquium, University of Arras, March 2016, in review Graphè , no. 26, '' The resurrection of Lazarus '', under the dir. from J.-M. Vercruysse, Artois Presses University, 2017, pp.35-55
So, around the Jewish revolts (70 and 135 AD), the name El'azar would have been, according to the author, "symbolic bearer of Jewish identity" (p.41)."
I thank you VERY MUCH, MrMacSon!!!

The House of Eleazar (1 Chronicles 24) was Symbolic of the Identity of Israel, from Jehoiarib to Immer, where Jehoiarib, of Meiron, contains the Hasmoneans. Immer, down the road from Meiron, believes the Hasmoneans came from them.

This absolutely makes my day!!!

All the very best, Mr. Mac!!!

CW


Giuseppe
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Re: Another mythicist Scholar: Nanine Charbonnel

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:33 am

Note what Charbonnel writes in a note (1 of p. 136, my translation), with a subtle irony:

In a pioneering work … (L'invention de Jésus …), Bernard Dubourg (1945-1992) based himself on the ascertainment of a massive use, in the production of texts, of gematria. … the his thesis of a midrashic invention of the people of New Testament are absolutely remarkable. … But Dubourg would be, for the XX° century, and particularly in France where the critics against Jesus flew often very low, a veritable liberator (right to Jewish text!)

(my bold)


Why does she point out a particular irony behind Dubourg being, in the her eyes, a «veritable liberator» with even a reference to the Jewish text?

The reason is here.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Another mythicist Scholar: Nanine Charbonnel

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:59 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:33 am

Note what Charbonnel writes in a note (1 of p. 136, my translation), with a subtle irony:

In a pioneering work … (L'invention de Jésus …), Bernard Dubourg (1945-1992) based [his determination on] a massive use of gematria in the production of texts … the his thesis of a midrashic invention of the people of New Testament are absolutely remarkable. … But Dubourg would be, for the XX° century, and particularly in France where the critics against Jesus flew often very low, a veritable liberator (right to Jewish text!)

Why does she point out a particular irony [of] Dubourg being, in the her eyes, a «veritable liberator» with even a reference to the Jewish text?

The reason is here, -
Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:46 am

Is a mere “coincidence” the fact that PiLaTe does precisely what the crowd wants he does in virtue of the Jewish meaning of the his name?

פָּלַט pâlaṭ, paw-lat'; a primitive root; to slip out, i.e. escape; causatively, to deliver:—calve, carry away safe, deliver, (cause to) escape.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... ongs=h6403

I'm not sure what you mean by "right to Jewish text", but I think Neil's account of Charbonnel's second chapter in Jésus-Christ, Sublime Figure de Papier addresses what you seem to be getting at.

In part, -

.
Further, the fundamental unit of the Hebrew language, consistent with other Semitic languages, was a (generally) three consonant root. To this three-letter foundation could be added suffixes and prefixes and, and by changing the internal vowel sounds one could produce a very wide array of nouns, adjectives and verbal forms. To paraphrase a quotation Charbonnel draws from a doctoral thesis by David Banon (University of Strasbourg),
  • it is as if the Semitic language had an unfinished character, a character that requires the reader to complete. In this respect the Hebrew text would look like the Creation that is not yet quite completed and that requires the man, the Adam, to perfect.
With such flexibility inherent in the text there is a possibility of endless play on interpretations and meanings.

Some other ways in which the Hebrew text acquires such plasticity:
  • Hebrew letters are also numbers. So words have numerical values. The sum of the value of each letter can be compared with the value of another word and inferences of interpretation can be thus drawn between the two words.
    • [gematria: calculating the numerical value of the letters then observing matches with other words.]
  • Each letter has a meaningful name. The letter for “b” (ב), for instance, is beth (or rather, BTH), and beth means house. So each consonant can be likened to a meaning or another word.
  • Some letters double as grammatical essentials. He (ה) is also the definite article, “the”; it is also a feminine ending; and also a word-ending signifying direction (towards); it can also indicate a question.
  • Certain letters can change the meaning or time or tense (whether an action has been completed or is on-going) associated with a word.
< . . snip . . >

The final point enabling further multiplications of interpretations listed, surely especially significant at the time the New Testament works were being composed, was familiarity of many authors with Aramaic as well as Hebrew. The languages are very close but significantly some differences involve reversals of meaning.

Such details about the scripts and languages need to be kept in mind whenever we seek to make sense of the biblical writings, Charbonnel concludes.


Mystical Power of the Letters [remixed here]

the written text...is sacred, but what is read or seen on the page can be different from what is actually read aloud or spoken ... the [intended] meaning [would have been] impossible to comprehend without an instructor.

Letters serve not only as support for revelation but as an integral part of it.

Some letters are very similar and easily confused (e.g. resh ר and daleth ד) with potentially 'disastrous' changes in meaning.

... etc ... via https://vridar.org/2019/08/05/jesus-chr ... brew-text/
.


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MrMacSon
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Re: Another mythicist Scholar: Nanine Charbonnel

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:14 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:46 am

Is a mere “coincidence” the fact that PiLaTe does precisely what the crowd wants he does in virtue of the Jewish meaning of the his name?

pâlaṭ, paw-lat'; a primitive root; to slip out, i.e. escape; causatively, to deliver:—calve, carry away safe, deliver, (cause to) escape.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... ongs=h6403
To highlight Charbonnel's & Guiseppe's points, from that Blue Letter Bible webpage, -

(and note, in relation to Guiseppe highlighting 'PiLaTe', Neil (or Charbonnel) has said "the fundamental unit of the Hebrew language, consistent with other Semitic languages, was a (generally) three consonant root")

  • Strong H6403 - palat.PNG
    Strong H6403 - palat.PNG (234.45 KiB) Viewed 585 times

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