Help Mark 9:29?

[Rafael silva]

Friend if you can help me once more is there any reference or quote from Clement in luke 3:16?

[DCHindley]

For future reference, you might consider the 10 volume Ante Nicene Fathers series published in the mid 19th century. PDF scans of 9 of the 10 printed books (vol 9, which was a general index of the first 8 volumes, was not scanned by CCEL, who numbered print vol 10 as "vol. 9") are available for free at the CCEL website.*

You can see that works and fragments of Clement of Alexandria was translated in volume 2. But the Index to Clement of Alexandria in volume 2 does not show Mark 9:29 cited. I think the problem was that the citation was actually associated with the parallel text of Matthew 17:21, with Robertson adding his comment as a footnote that this passage probably relates better to Mark 9.29 as he felt the passage in Matthew appears to be an interpolation based on Mark 9:29.

If you get a chance to look at the 9th print volume (the one with the general index not scanned by CCEL) the scripture index shows Mark 9:29 cited in volume 4 page 107 (Tertullian, On Fasting ch 8, on fasting with prayer to overcome the effects of demons), and volume 8 page 57 (this was an error for page 59, Pseudo-Clement of Rome, 1st Epistle concerning Virginity, also on use of fasting with prayer to overcome the effects of demons). The Index volume also does not have Clement cite Matthew 7:21

If only we fast & pray we may yet thwart the demon who controls citation errors (mine included)!

I have yet to look at Andrew's link to see what it refers to. Prophetic Ecologues is the same as Excerpts of Theodotus, although manuscripts attributed it to Clement of Rome. Many "modern" scholars believed this was a mis-attribution, and the real author was Clement of Alexandria.

Mark 9:29 is mirrored in Matthew 17:21, so a reference to one is in many respects the same as a reference to the other.

DCH

*

Vol.	Seq.	Writer	Authors/Works Contained
1	1	Clement of Rome	Epistle to the Corinthians
1	2	Mathetes	Epistle to Diognetus
1	3	Polycarp	Epistle to the Philippians
1	4	The Church at Smyrna	Encyclical Epistle Concerning the Martyrdon of Polycarp
1	5	Ignatuis of Antioch	Shorter & Longer Epistle to the Ephesians
1	6	Ignatuis of Antioch	Shorter & Longer Epistle to the Magnesians
1	7	Ignatuis of Antioch	Shorter & Longer Epistle to the Trallians
1	8	Ignatuis of Antioch	Shorter & Longer Epistle to the Romans
1	9	Ignatuis of Antioch	Shorter & Longer Epistle to the Philadelphians
1	10	Ignatuis of Antioch	Shorter & Longer Epistle to the Smyrnaeans
1	11	Ignatuis of Antioch	Shorter & Longer Epistle to Polycarp
1	12	Ignatuis of Antioch	Syriac Epistle to Polycarp
1	13	Ignatuis of Antioch	Syriac Epistle to the Ephesians
1	14	Ignatuis of Antioch	Syriac Epistle to the Romans
1	15	Attributed to Ignatius	Ep. to the Tarsians
1	16	Attributed to Ignatius	Ep. to the Antiochians
1	17	Attributed to Ignatius	Ep. to Hero
1	18	Attributed to Ignatius	Ep. to the Philippians
1	19	Attributed to Maria the Proselyte	Ep. to Ignatius
1	20	Attributed to Ignatius	Ep. to Mary at Neapolis, near Zarbus
1	21	Attributed to Ignatius	1st Ep. To St. John the Apostle
1	22	Attributed to Ignatius	2nd Ep. to St. John the Apostle
1	23	Attributed to Ignatius	Ep. To the Virgin Mary
1	24	Anonymous	Martyrdom of Ignatius
1	25	Barnabas	Epistle (regarding superiority of Christianity as opposed to Judaism)
1	26	Papias	Fragments
1	27	Justin Martyr	First Apology
1	28	Justin Martyr	Second Apology
1	29	Justin Martyr	Dialogue with Trypho, A Jew
1	30	Justin Martyr	Discourse to the Greeks
1	31	Justin Martyr	Hortatory Address to the Greeks
1	32	Justin Martyr	On the Sole Government of God
1	33	Justin Martyr	Fragments of On the Resurrection
1	34	Justin Martyr	Other Fragments
1	35	Anonymous	Martyrdom of Justin
1	36	Irenaeus of Lugdunum	Against Heresies, books 1 & 2
1	37	Irenaeus of Lugdunum	Against Heresies, books 3 to parts of 4, and probably to end.
1	38	Irenaeus of Lugdunum	Fragments
2	1	Anonymous	Pastor of Hermas: Visions
2	2	Anonymous	Pastor of Hermas: Commandments
2	3	Anonymous	Pastor of Hermas: Similitudes
2	4	Tatian	Address to the Greeks
2	5	Theophilus	To Autolycus
2	6	Athenagoras	A Plea for the Christians
2	7	Athenagoras	The Resurrection of the Dead
2	8	Clement of Alexandria	Exhortation to the Heathen
2	9	Clement of Alexandria	The Instructor
2	10	Clement of Alexandria	The Stromata (The Miscellanies)
2	11	Clement of Alexandria	Fragments of Clement's Hypotyposes or other lost works
2	12	Clement of Alexandria	Who is the Rich Man that shall be saved?
3	1	Tertullian	Apologetic: The Apology
3	2	Tertullian	Apologetic: On Idolatry
3	3	Tertullian	Apologetic: The Shows (De Spectaculis)
3	4	Tertullian	Apologetic: The Chaplet (De Corona)
3	5	Tertullian	Apologetic: To Scapula
3	6	Tertullian	Apologetic: Ad Nationes
3	7	Tertullian	Appoendix: Fragments
3	8	Tertullian	Apologetic: An Answer to the Jews
3	9	Tertullian	Apologetic: The Soul's testimony
3	10	Tertullian	Apologetic: A Treatise on the Soul
3	11	Tertullian	Anti-Heretical: The Prescription Against Heretics
3	12	Tertullian	Anti-Heretical: The Five Books Against Marcion
3	13	Tertullian	Anti-Heretical: Against Hermogenes
3	14	Tertullian	Anti-Heretical: Against the Valentinians
3	15	Tertullian	Anti-Heretical: On the Flesh of Christ
3	16	Tertullian	Anti-Heretical: On the Resurrection of the Flesh
3	17	Tertullian	Anti-Heretical: Against praxeas
3	18	Tertullian	Anti-Heretical: Scorpiace
3	19	Attributed to Tertullian	Against All Heresies
3	20	Tertullian	Ethics: On Repentence
3	21	Tertullian	Ethics: On Baptism
3	22	Tertullian	Ethics: On Prayer
3	23	Tertullian	Ethics: Ad Martyras
3	24	Edited by Tertullian?	The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicitas
3	25	Tertullian	Ethics: Of Patience
4	1	Tertullian of Carthage	Behaviour: On the Pallium
4	2	Tertullian of Carthage	Behaviour: On the Apparel of Women
4	3	Tertullian of Carthage	Behaviour: On the Veiling of Virgins
4	4	Tertullian of Carthage	Behaviour: To My Wife
4	5	Tertullian of Carthage	Behaviour: On Exhortation to Chastity
4	6	Tertullian of Carthage	Behaviour: On Monogamy
4	7	Tertullian of Carthage	Behaviour: On Modesty
4	8	Tertullian of Carthage	Behaviour: On Fasting
4	9	Tertullian of Carthage	Behaviour: De Fuga in Persecutione
4	10	Attributed to Tertullian	A Strain of Jonah the Prophet
4	11	Attributed to Tertullian	A Strain of Sodom
4	12	Attributed to Tertullian	[A Strain of] Genesis
4	13	Attributed to Tertullian	A Strain of the Judgement of the World
4	14	Attributed to Tertullian	Five Books in Reply to Marcion
4	15	Minucius Felix	The Octavius
4	16	Commodianus	Instructions in Favour of Christian Discipline Against the Gods of the Heathen
4	17	Rufinus	Prologue to Origen's De Principiis
4	18	Origen	De Principiis
4	19	Africanus	Letter to Origen about the History of Susanna (in Greek Daniel)
4	20	Origen	Reply to Africanus's Letter about the History of Susanna
4	21	Origen	Letter to Gregory
4	22	Origen	Against Celsus
5	1	Hippolytus of Rome	Refutation of all Heresies
5	2	Hippolytus of Rome	Fragments of Exegetical Works
5	3	Hippolytus of Rome	Fragments of Dogmatical & Historical Works
5	4	Pontius the Deacon	Life & Passion of Cyprian
5	5	Cyprian of Carthage	Epistles
5	6	Cyprian of Carthage	Treatises
5	7	Cyprian of Carthage	Seventh Council of Carthage
5	8	Attributed to Cyprian	Other Treatises
5	9	Caius	Fragments
5	10	Novatian	Treatise Concerning the Trinity
5	11	Novatian	On the Jewish Meats
5	12	Councils of Carthage under Cyprian	From Acts & Records related to Controversies over Baptism of Heretics
5	13	Anonymous	Treatise Against the Heretic Novatian
5	14	An Anonymous Bishop	Treatise Against the Heretic Novatian
5	15	Anonymous	Treatise on Re-Baptism
6	1	Gregory Thaumaturgus	A Declaration of Faith
6	2	Gregory Thaumaturgus	A Metaphrase of the Book of Ecclesiastes
6	3	Gregory Thaumaturgus	Canonical Epistle
6	4	Gregory Thaumaturgus	Oration and Panegyric addressed to Origen
6	5	Gregory Thaumaturgus	A Sectional Confession of Faith
6	6	Gregory Thaumaturgus	On the Trinity
6	7	Gregory Thaumaturgus	Twelve Topics on the Faith
6	8	Gregory Thaumaturgus	On the Subject of the Soul
6	9	Gregory Thaumaturgus	Four Homilies
6	10	Gregory Thaumaturgus	On All the Saints
6	11	Gregory Thaumaturgus	On the Gospel According to Matthew
6	12	Dionysius the Great	Extant Fragments
6	13	Dionysius the Great	Exegetical Fragments
6	14	Africanus	Epistle to Aristides on the Genealogy in the Holy Gospels
6	15	Africanus	Narrative of Events Happening in Persia on the Birth of Christ
6	16	Africanus	Fragments of the Chronography (Five Books)
6	17	Africanus	The Passion of St. Symphorosa and Her Seven Sons
6	18	Anatolius of Alexandria	The Paschal canon
6	19	Anatolius of Alexandria	Books on Arithmetic
6	20	Alexander of Cappadocia	Epistles
6	21	Theognostus of Alexandria	Seven Books of Hypotyposes or Outlines
6	22	Pierius of Alexandria	Fragment of a Work on 1 Corinthians & other fragments
6	23	Theonas of Alexandria	Epistle to Lucianus the Chief Chamberlain
6	24	Phileas	Fragments of an Epistle to the People of Thmuis
6	25	Phileas	Epistle of the Bishops to the People of Thmuis
6	26	Pamphilus	An Exposition of the Chapters of the Acts of the Apostles
6	27	Malchion	Fragments of an Epistle of the Synod of Antioch against Paul of Samosata
6	28	Malchion	Fragments from the Acts of the Disputation Against Paul of Samosata
6	29	Archelaus	Fragments of the Acts of the Disputation with the Heresiarch Manes
6	30	Alexander Bishop of Lycopolis	Of the Manichaeans
6	31	Athanasius Bibliothecarius	The Genuine Acts of Peter (of Alexandria)
6	32	Basil, Theodore Balsamon & John Zonaras	The Canons of the Blessed Peter, Archbishop of of Alexandria, as Given in His Sermon on Pentence
6	33	Peter of Alexandria	Fragments of Epistles & Writings
6	34	Alexander Bishop of Alexandria	Epistles on the Arian Heresy & The Deposition of Arius
6	35	Methodius	The Banquet of the Ten Virgins (Concerning Chastity)
6	36	Methodius	Concerning Free Will
6	37	Methodius	From the Discourse on the Resurrection
6	38	Methodius	Fragments On the History of Jonah, On Things created, Against Porphyry, Concerning Martyrs
6	39	Methodius?	Oration Concerning Simeon and Anna
6	40	Methodius?	Oration on the Palms
6	41	Methodius?	Three Fragments from the Homily on the Cross and the Passion of Christ
6	42	Methodius?	Some Other Fragments
6	43	Arnobius	The Seven Books Against the Heathen
7	1	Lactantius	Divine Institutes
7	2	Lactantius	The Epitome of the Divine Institutes, addressed to his brother Pentadius
7	3	Lactantius	Treatise on the Anger of God
7	4	Lactantius	On the Workmanship of God, or The Formation of Man
7	5	Lactantius	On the Manner in which the Persecutors Died
7	6	Lactantius	Fragments
7	7	Attributed to Lactantius	The Phoenix
7	8	Attributed to Lactantius	Poem on the Passion of the Lord
7	9	Venantius	Poem on Easter
7	10	Asterius Urbanus	Fragments from The Exordium
7	11	Victorinus	On the Creation of the World
7	12	Victorinus	Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John
7	13	Dionysius of Rome	Against the Sabellians
7	14	Attributed to Athanasius	Confession of Our Christian Faith (pp. 366-368)
7	15	Anonymous	Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (The Didache)
7	16	Attributed to Clement of Rome	Constitutions of the Holy Apostles
7	17	Attributed to Clement of Rome	The Homily (2 Clement)
7	18	Council of Nicaea & Constantinople	The Creed (pp. 524-5)
7	19	Anonymous	The Liturgy of James
7	20	Anonymous	The Liturgy of Mark
7	21	Anonymous	The Liturgy of the Blessed Apostles
8	1	Anonymous	Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
8	2	Clement of Alexandria?	Excerpts of Theodotus
8	3	Attributed to Clement of Rome	Two Epistles Concerning Virginity
8	4	Anonymous	Recognitions of Clement
8	5	Anonymous	The Clementine Homilies
8	6	Anonymous	Protoevangelium of James
8	7	Anonymous	Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew
8	8	Anonymous	Gospel of the Nativity of Mary
8	9	Anonymous	The History of Joseph the Carpenter
8	10	Anonymous	The (Infancy) Gospel of Thomas
8	11	Anonymous	Arabic Gospel of the Infancy of Our Saviour
8	12	Anonymous	Gospel of Nicodemus
8	13	Anonymous	The Letter of Pontius Pilate Concerning Our Lord Jesus Christ
8	14	Anonymous	Report of Pilate the Procurator Concerning Our Lord Jesus Christ
8	15	Anonymous	Report of Pontius Pilate
8	16	Anonymous	The Giving Up of Pontius Pilate
8	17	Anonymous	The Death of Pilate
8	18	Anonymous	Narrative of Joseph
8	19	Anonymous	The Avenging of the Saviour
8	20	Anonymous	Acts of the Holy Ap[ostles Peter & Paul
8	21	Anonymous	Acts of Paul & Thecla
8	22	Anonymous	Acts of Barnabas
8	23	Anonymous	Acts of Philip
8	24	Anonymous	Acts and Martyrdom of the Holy Apostle Andrew
8	25	Anonymous	Acts of Andrew and Matthias
8	26	Anonymous	Acts of Peter and Andrew
8	27	Anonymous	Acts and Martyrdom of Saint Matthew the Apostle
8	28	Anonymous	Acts of the Holy Apostle Thomas
8	29	Anonymous	Consummation of Thomas the Apostle
8	30	Anonymous	Martyrdom of the Holy and Glorious Apostle Bartholomew
8	31	Anonymous	Acts of the Holy Apostle Thaddaeus
8	32	Anonymous	Acts of the Holy Apostle and Evangelest John the Theologian
8	33	Anonymous	Revelation of Moses
8	34	Anonymous	Revelation of Esdras
8	35	Anonymous	Revelation of Paul
8	36	Anonymous	Revelation of John (the Theologian)
8	37	Anonymous	Book of John Concerning the Falling Asleep of Mary
8	38	Anonymous	The Passing of Mary
8	39	(False) Decretals	Epistles of Pope Zephyrinus
8	40	(False) Decretals	Epistles of Pope Callistus
8	41	(False) Decretals	Epistles of Pope Urban First
8	42	(False) Decretals	Epistles of Pope Pontianus
8	43	(False) Decretals	Epistles of Pope Anterus
8	44	(False) Decretals	Epistles of Pope Fabian
8	45	(False) Decretals	Decrees of Pope Fabian
8	46	Anonymous	Story Concerning the King of Edessa (Syriac)
8	47	Mar Jacob the teacher	Canticle on Edessa (Syriac)
8	48	Various	Extracts concerning Abgar the King and Addaeus the Apostle (Syriac)
8	49	Anonymous	The Teaching of Addeus the Apostle (Syriac)
8	50	Anonymous	The Teaching of the Apostles (Syriac)
8	51		Syriac, Hebrew & Western Calendars
8	52	Anonymous	The Teaching of Simon Cephas in the City of Rome (Syriac)
8	53	Anonymous	Acts of Sharbil (Syriac)
8	54	Anonymous	Martyrdom of Barsamya (Syriac)
8	55	Anonymous	Martyrdom of Habib the Deacon (Syriac)
8	56	Anonymous	Martyrdom of the Holy Confessors Shamuna, Guria, and Habib (Syriac)
8	57	Moses of Chorene	History of Armenia (Syriac)
8	58	Mar Jacob	Homily on Habib the Martyr (Syriac)
8	59	Mar Jacob	Homily on Guria and Shamuna (Syriac)
8	60	Bardesan	The Book of the Laws of Divers Countries (aka The Discourse on Fate) (Syriac)
8	61	Mara, son of Serapion	A Letter (Syriac)
8	62	Attributed to Ambrose	A Memorial (Syriac, similar to Discourse to the Greeks attributed to Justin)
8	63	Quadratus, Bishop of Athens	From the Apology for the Christian Religion
8	64	Aristo of Pella	From the Disputation of Jason and Papiscus
8	65	Melito the Philosopher	Fragments from various works
8	66	Hegesippus	Fragments in Eusebius, Church History
8	67	Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth	Fragments in Eusebius, Church History
8	68	Rhodon	Fragments in Eusebius, Church History
8	69	Maximus, Bishop of Jerusalem	Fragments in Eusebius, Church History, Preparation for the Gospel
8	70	Claudius Appolinaris, Bishop of Hierapolis	Various Fragments
8	71	Polycrates, Bishop of Ephesus	Fragments in Eusebius, Church History
8	72	Theophilus. Bishop opf Caesaria (Palestine)	Fragments in Eusebius, Church History
8	73	Serapion, Bishop of Antioch	Fragments in Eusebius, Church History
8	74	Apollonius	Fragments in Eusebius, Church History
8	75	Pantaenus, the Alexandrian Philosopher	Various Fragments
8	76	Pseudo-Irenaeus	Fragments of the Letter of the Churches in Vienne and Lyons
9	1		Bibliographical Synopsis to first 8 volumes
9	2		General index to first 8 volumes
10	1	Anonymous	Gospel of Peter
10	2	Tatian?	Arabic Diatessaron
10	3	Anonymous	Apocalypse of Peter
10	4	Anonymous	Vision of Paul (Latin version)
10	5	Anonymous	Apocalypse of the Virgin
10	6	Anonymous	Apocalypse of Sedrach
10	7	Anonymous	The Testament of Abraham
10	8	Anonymous	The Acts of Xanthippe and Polyxena
10	9	Anonymous	The Narrative of Zosimus
10	10	Clement of Rome	Epistle to the Corinthians & a Homily
10	11	Aristides "the Philosopher"	Apology, tr from Greek & Syriac, compared
10	12	Anonymous	The Passion of the Scillitan Martyrs
10	13	Origen	Epistle to Gregory
10	14	Origen	Commentary on the Gospel of John
10	15	Origen	Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew
10	269	269

[DCHindley]

I guess I was wrong about Excerpta ex Theodoto being the same as Eclogue propheticae, well sort of ...

Seems that in the single primary manuscript for these works, the last part of Book 8 of the Stromateis is lost. The scribe copied out something else to fill the extra space left. She or he probably felt the added text(s) could be genuine works of Clement of Alexandria, but we do not really know.

Turns out this added text is one big blurb.

It was early modern critics who divided this blurb apart and gave different names to the parts:
Excerpta ex Theodoto & Eclogue propheticae.

For various and perhaps good reasons, mid 19th century scholars were pretty sure that they were both written by Clement of Alexandria, only for different purposes and using different styles.

However, I find the certain attribution of authorship to Clement of Alexandria to be overly confident. If Morton Smith really faked his find of a letter by Clement of Alexandria that contained a fragment of a "secret" version of the Gospel of Mark, it would be to mock the credulity of scholarship, yes?

DCH

[andrewcriddle]

Friend if you can help me once more is there any reference or quote from Clement in luke 3:16?

AS well as the information at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5005#p97363 We have from http://gnosis.org/library/excr.htm Eclogues 25

XXV. John says: "I indeed baptize you with water, but there cometh after me He that baptizeth with the Spirit and fire." [3] But He baptized no one with fire. But some, as Heraclius says, marked with fire the ears of those who were sealed; understanding so the apostolic saying, "For His fan is in His hand, to purge His floor: and He will gather the wheat into the garner; but the chaff He will burn with fire un-quenchable." [4] There is joined, then, the expression "by fire" to that" by the Spirit;" since He separates the wheat from the chaff, that is, from the material husk, by the Spirit; and the chaff is separated, being fanned by the wind : [5] so also the Spirit possesses a power of separating material forces. Since, then, some things are produced from what is unproduced and indestructible, -that is, the germs of life,--the wheat also is stored, and the material part, as long as it is conjoined with the superior part, remains; when separated from it, it is destroyed; for it had its existence in another thing. This separating element, then, is the Spirit, and the destroying element is the fire: and material fire is to be understood. But since that which is saved is like wheat, and that which grows in the soul like chaff, and the one is incorporeal, and that which is separated is material; to the incorporeal He opposes spirit, which is rarefied and pure -almost more so than mind; and to the material He opposes fire, not as being evil or bad, but as strong and capable of cleansing away evil. For fire is conceived as a good force and powerful, destructive of what is baser, and conservative of what is better. Wherefore this fire is by the prophets called wise.

It is often unclear whether Clement is quoting Luke 3:16 or a synoptic parallel.

Andrew Criddle

[Secret Alias]

or non-canonical gospel that has synoptic parallels