The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

[neilgodfrey]

they accurately documented the positions of the stars and planets over centuries,

Who are "they" exactly? What are the primary sources for their documentation of the positions of the stars over centuries -- exactly? I am not saying maps weren't made. I'm asking for the detailed basis of your claims, the who, the how, the when, the what . . . exactly. Let's start at the ground level.

and this observable shift of the pole from the dragon to the
bear-lion-leopard is the only coherent explanation for the shift of power seat and authority of the dragon to the bear-lion-leopard.

Robert explained this thus:

One Biblical text that appears to refer to this observation is Revelation 13:2 - “The beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.”

Could this symbolic text encode an actual empirical knowledge of the movement of the pole, like the accurate astronomy in the measurement of the holy city against the pole? The case looks persuasive. The north pole is a symbol of the unchanging eternal stability of the heavens, the throne of the sky. As such, the “power, throne and authority” given by the dragon readily refer to the celestial point about which the whole cosmos appears to revolve. The dragon is the constellation Draco. Thuban is in the tail of Draco and was the Pole Star in 2700 BC. Since ancient times the pole has precessed out of Draco and through Ursa Minor.

The bear-lion-leopard in the Apocalypse matches directly to the adjacent constellations Leo the Lion and the Bears Ursa Major and Ursa Minor, which were called the Leopard in Babylon. The pole has moved from the dragon to the leopard-bear-lion over the last 6000 years. Looking at the sky, the symbolic language of a creature with bear’s feet and a lion’s head makes simple sense as describing the observable historic movement of the pole.

All you give us here is the hypothesis, Robert. Not the proof or any argument to support the claim that your interpretation is what the author had in mind.

And your explanation does appear to gloss over a few difficulties. The passage in Revelation speaks of one beast but your interpretation breaks that down into three beasts. How do you justify that?

Can you point us to a constellation map from the Hellenistic/Roman era (or any you believe to be relevant) that would help illustrate your point?

I'm not clear on what you mean by the Bears being called the Leopard -- since I presume the passage in Revelation in your view is referring to three constellations, Bear, Leopard and Lion. So Presumably there is a Leopard and Bear as distinct constellations. I'm not doubting, but would appreciate if you could point me to the map or description to support this.

What does your interpretation of Revelation 13:2 imply for the remainder of the beast imagery in that chapter and for the details about the length of reign and specific functions -- and fate -- assigned the beast(s)?

What is deficient with the interpretation that this hybrid beast coming out of the sea (flood) fits culturally with the view of the time of Revelation's composition that pre-Flood beasts were like monstrosities like this? Or with the view that we have a reference to a southern constellation that represents one like Cetus, or Tiamat, the Dragon in Akkadian -- with seven heads, etc?

If Revelation did not make it into the Bible and remained as irrelevant today as any other Mesopotamian or Roman mythical jotting would we even be having his conversation? In other words, are we privileging Revelation over other ancient sky descriptions because of its canonical status?

[Roger Pearse]

I thought for a moment there might be an interesting idea there. But no. It's just the same saying whatever is convenient.

[Robert Tulip]

I have to thank Stephan Huller for inspiring me to start this thread.

At viewtopic.php?p=8730#p8730 I responded to his comment about Mandaean interest in the North Celestial Pole, as follows. This post provides context and links for the argument of the opening post, including the link to the image which illustrates how the symbols are visible at the pole.

Robert Tulip has attempted to ram foreign traditions of 'astrotheology' into the Biblical texts.

What does ‘foreign’ mean in assessing the origins of Biblical images? The Jews were in captivity in Babylon and were influenced by Babylonian thought. Egyptian, Greek and Indian religion also had influence. Acts 7:22 says Moses was learned in all the teachings of the Egyptians. So it is not a matter of finding things elsewhere and introjecting them into the Bible, but rather reading the Bible with a view to finding lost astral meaning. We can readily show that in the case you have raised, the Pole Star.

the Mandaeans were recorded starting their year with a ceremony directed at the Great Bear and Polaris (the North Star) in the Little Bear …the priest, when entering the edifice, has the North Star, the great object of their adoration, immediately facing him. . . . Towards midnight the star- worshippers, men and women, come slowly down to the Mishkna by the river side. . . . By midnight there are some twenty rows of these white-robed figures, ranked in orderly array facing the Mishkna, and awaiting the coming of the priests. A couple of tarmidos, lamp in hand, guard the entry to the tabernacle, and keep their eyes fixed upon the pointers of the Great Bear. As soon as these attain the position indicating midnight/ a signal is given, and a procession of priests, including ' the spiritual head of the sect, the Ganzivro,' moves to the Mishkna.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... sion_N.gif is a map of the movement of the North Celestial Pole, the axis of the earth and the unmoving spot in the sky around which the stars appear to revolve. The Celestial Pole itself rotates slowly around the North Ecliptic Pole, the axis of the sun, located at the right foot of the dragon.

At Draco and Ursa in Ancient Astronomy I explore the astronomy around this observation, including as it is contained in ancient writings. I summarise some of this material at The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

[neilgodfrey]

At viewtopic.php?p=8730#p8730 I responded to his comment about Mandaean interest in the North Celestial Pole, as follows. This post provides context and links for the argument of the opening post, including the link to the image which illustrates how the symbols are visible at the pole.

I did not see any image of ancient star maps. Only this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... sion_N.gif

That image proves nothing. We all understand precession. The question is what the author of Revelation understood and what configuration of constellations he saw in the sky.

[Robert Tulip]

The circumpolar stars are in exactly the same relative positions as they were in ancient times except that the pole has moved towards Polaris. Here is Ptolemy's ancient map of the northern sky showing all the relevant constellations. The file is in a Mormon essay but does not add any modern changes.

http://josephsmithacademy.org/projects/ ... _map_n.jpg

[neilgodfrey]

The circumpolar stars are in exactly the same relative positions as they were in ancient times except that the pole has moved towards Polaris. Here is Ptolemy's ancient map of the northern sky showing all the relevant constellations. The file is in a Mormon essay but does not add any modern changes.

http://josephsmithacademy.org/projects/ ... _map_n.jpg

I am not so thick as to be unaware that the stars have maintained their same relative positions, but what I am asking for is some verification of what configurations of constellations were understood in Hellenistic and Roman times.

The map you link to does not look like an ancient map at all. Can you show me accurate reproductions of the primary sources? What is the earliest reproduction of Ptolemy's map you can show here?

I hope this doesn't sound picky. It is a serious request. Serious research needs to first establish the provenance of its sources and be sure it is dealing with the real thing, or exact copies of the real thing -- not secondary representations.

[neilgodfrey]

To understand Ptolemy's understanding of the constellations can we go beyond the texts of Ptolemy themselves (Almagest and Tetrabiblos?) and Brown's analysis? http://www.scribd.com/doc/163447993/R-B ... s-volume-2

Can you suggest other starting points?

I don't think we should be too quick to impose modern outlines of the constellations on ancient descriptions -- at least not until we have established the clear provenance of those modern outlines.

[DCHindley]

To understand Ptolemy's understanding of the constellations can we go beyond the texts of Ptolemy themselves (Almagest and Tetrabiblos?) and Brown's analysis? http://www.scribd.com/doc/163447993/R-B ... s-volume-2

Can you suggest other starting points?

I don't think we should be too quick to impose modern outlines of the constellations on ancient descriptions -- at least not until we have established the clear provenance of those modern outlines.

This is volume 2. While Scribd says that the 1st volume is not available free, I found it here:

(Brown, Robert Jr) Researches into the Origin of the Primitive Constellations of the Greeks, Phoenicians and Babylonians (vol 1, 1900)

https://ia600407.us.archive.org/29/item ... owuoft.pdf

I think these two volumes will prove indispensable to anyone interested in ancient astronomical observations and their astrological implications. Thanks for finding them. I tried myself the other day without too much success.

DCH

[bcedaifu]

I did not see any image of ancient star maps. Only this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... sion_N.gif

That image proves nothing. We all understand precession. The question is what the author of Revelation understood and what configuration of constellations he saw in the sky.

Really?
You claim to understand vector mechanics, including angular momentum and moments of inertia?
You understand this simple, non-calculus exposition, intended for lay persons:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/top.html

Or, have you read Beer et al's 2012, tenth edition of Vector Mechanics?
http://www.amazon.com/Vector-Mechanics- ... 0077402286

I am ever surprised by the degree of brilliance exhibited by forum members, with their ability to comprehend application of Lagrangian classical mechanics to the study of precession.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_eq ... _mechanics

[neilgodfrey]

I did not see any image of ancient star maps. Only this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... sion_N.gif

That image proves nothing. We all understand precession. The question is what the author of Revelation understood and what configuration of constellations he saw in the sky.

Really?
You claim to understand vector mechanics, including angular momentum and moments of inertia?
You understand this simple, non-calculus exposition, intended for lay persons:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/top.html

Or, have you read Beer et al's 2012, tenth edition of Vector Mechanics?
http://www.amazon.com/Vector-Mechanics- ... 0077402286

I am ever surprised by the degree of brilliance exhibited by forum members, with their ability to comprehend application of Lagrangian classical mechanics to the study of precession.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_eq ... _mechanics

I am ever surprised at your own inability to spell name you see in front of you and your inability to comprehend the intent of dialogue you read here.