The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6161
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

Post by neilgodfrey »

DCHindley wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote:To understand Ptolemy's understanding of the constellations can we go beyond the texts of Ptolemy themselves (Almagest and Tetrabiblos?) and Brown's analysis? http://www.scribd.com/doc/163447993/R-B ... s-volume-2

Can you suggest other starting points?

I don't think we should be too quick to impose modern outlines of the constellations on ancient descriptions -- at least not until we have established the clear provenance of those modern outlines.
This is volume 2. While Scribd says that the 1st volume is not available free, I found it here:

(Brown, Robert Jr) Researches into the Origin of the Primitive Constellations of the Greeks, Phoenicians and Babylonians (vol 1, 1900)

https://ia600407.us.archive.org/29/item ... owuoft.pdf

I think these two volumes will prove indispensable to anyone interested in ancient astronomical observations and their astrological implications. Thanks for finding them. I tried myself the other day without too much success.

DCH
Wonderful! Thanks for this. Vol.2 does regularly refer readers back to Vol.1 so this is necessary.

(On a related matter that has been raised here, I wonder if it is odd to base a religious belief upon Mediterranean/Mid Eastern astrological configurations as if these are by some natural order of universal significance. Do the Chinese have to give up their astrology to find peace?)
vridar.org Musings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3440
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

Post by DCHindley »

I thought it might be a good idea to present evidence that the Greeks were NOT interested in relating their gods to celestial or astral phenomenon, and that there is no constellation named the Leopard (in fact, the word leopard is incorporated in a constellation created in the 17th century as the Giraffe - named "camel-leopard"), here is an excerpt from Robert Brown Jr, Researches into the Origin of the Primitive Constellations (vol 1, 1899):
[10] CHAPTER II.

The Primitive Constellations of the Greeks.

By the primitive constellations of the Greeks I mean those which appeared on the uranographic globe of the astronomer Eudoxos of Knidos, cir. B.C. 403-350, and were mentioned in his work the Phainomena, a treatise afterwards versified, cir. B.C. 270, by the poet Aratos, who lived at the court of Antigonos Gonatas, king of Makedonia. They thus reappear in the Phainomena of Aratos, and consist of the following figures:

I. Northern Constellations. The Lesser Bear, the Greater Bear, the Bearward or Ploughman, the Serpent, Kepheus, Kassiepeia, Andromeda, Perseus, the Delta-shaped (figure), the Horse, the Dolphin, the Charioteer, the Kneeler, the Lyre, the Bird, the Eagle, the Arrow, the Crown, and the Snake-holder (19).

II. Central or Zodiacal Constellations. The Ram, the Bull, the Twins, the Crab, the Lion, the Virgin, the Claws, the Scorpion, the Archer, the Goat, the Water-pourer, the Fishes, and the Clusterers (13).

III. Southern Constellations. Orion, the Dog, the Hare, Argo, the Sea- Monster, the Stream, the Fish, the Altar, the Centaur, the Wafer-snake, the Bowl, and the Crow (12).

[11] ... In this arrangement the Snake is included in the Snake-holder, and the Wild-beast in the Centaur. The Clusterers (Pleiades) are distinct from the Bull. The poet notices, but does not name, the Southern Crown; and also refers by name to five particular stars viz., Bear-watcher (Arktouros), Ear-of-corn (Stachys), Fruit - plucking -herald (Protrygeter), Scorcher (Seirios) and Dogs-precursor (Prokyon).

Sir G. C. Lewis observes that K. O. Müller (Proleg. zu einer Wissenschaftlichen Mythologie, Eng. edit, by Jno. Leitch, 1844), 'has shown that the astronomical mythi of the Greeks formed an unimportant part of their mythology, and were for the most part unconnected with their religion' (Astron. of the Ancients, p. 63). This is perfectly true when applied to the purely Hellenic portion of Greek mythology and religion, and with such a limitation we may quite agree with the further remarks that 'the religion and mythology of the early Greeks had scarcely any reference to astronomy, or to an adoration of the heavenly bodies' (Ibid. p. 62) ; and that 'As the religion and mythology, so the divination of the early Greeks had little connexion with the heavenly bodies' (Ibid. p. 70). From these admitted premisses one of two things follows: Either very little notice was taken of 'astronomical mythi' and constellation-figures in early Hellas; or, if, on the contrary, very considerable notice was taken of these things, then the influence which turned thought in this direction was non-Hellenic. As the views of Lewis are merely those of Midler I need not further refer to the former in this connexion, except to mention his obviously weak, and really baseless, remark that 'the constellations [12] of the heavenly sphere seem [Italics mine.] to have been gradually formed by the Greeks' (Ibid. p. 68). Müller's views 'on Astronomical Mythi,' which form the Appendix to Chapter IX. of his abovementioned work I shall notice subsequently (Vide inf. p. 127).

The Hipparcho-Ptolemy Star-list (Vide inf. Chap. III.), which covers the ground from B.C. 150 to A.D. 150, exactly agrees with the enumeration of Aratos, except that the Snake and the Wild-beast are made separate constellations; Prukyon is raised to the rank of a constellation and has two stars assigned to it; the Southern Crown is named as a constellation, the Pleiads are included in the Bull, and an altogether fresh constellation, the Foremost-horse (Lat. Equuleus, the Colt)., appears. This figure was formed by Hipparchos (Vide Geminos, Eisagoge, ii.) by way of suggestion from an existing constellation ...

[15] ... Thus, there is no mention in the Phainomena of any particular stars in the Crab; but in the poet's companion work, the Diosemeia, 160-76, there is a somewhat elaborate account of the Manger (Phatne) and the Asses (Onoi = Asellus Boreas and Asellus Australis), as connected with [16] rainy weather. These names also occur in Ptolemy's List, and had the Diosemeia been lost, the adherents of the argument from silence might, acting on their usual lines, have triumphantly asserted that the Manger and Asses were unknown to Aratos.

In the interval between Augustus and Queen Elizabeth occasional efforts were made to add to the canon of constellations; but, except in the case of Antinoos, without much success. Thus, Pliny speaks of 'Item quem sub Divo Augusto cognominavere Caesaris Thronon' (Hist. Nat. ii. 71); and, again, he refers to the 'vastitas caeli immensa, discreta altitudine in duo atque septuaginta signa' (Ibid. 41). Minsheu defines an 'asterisme' as a 'configuration of fixed starres, an imaginarie forme devised by the astrologers, the better to conceive and distinguish asunder the fixed starres, of which are reckoned eighty-four in all, besides a few found out of late by the discoverers of the South Pole' (Dictionary, 1625, in voc. Asterisme). The latter constellations are those formed by Bayer, cir. 1603, viz., the Bird-of-Paradise (Apus), the Chameleon, the Sword-fish (Dorado), the Crane (Grus), the Water-snake (Hydrus, an instance of reduplication), the Indian, the Fly (Musca), the Peacock (Pavo), the Phoenix, the Toucan, the Flying-fish (Piscis Volans) and the Southern Triangle (Triangulum, another instance of reduplication). Amongst the Signs referred to by Pliny and Minsheu were probably included various well-known parts of several of the ordinary constellations, e.g., the Goat and Kids, the Sickle (in Leo), the Sword (of Orion), etc., and perhaps also some individual stars. ...

[17] ... In 1690 the Giraffe (Cameleopardalis), the Hunting-dogs (Canes Venatici), the Lizard (Lacerta), the Lesser Lion (Leo Minor, an instance of reduplication), the Lynx, the Unicorn (Monoceros), the Sextant (Sextans), the Fox and Goose (Vulpecula et Anser), and the Shield (Clypeus) of Sobieski were added by Hevelius. Other constellation-figures, many of which are not recognized in the Catalogue of the British Association, have been added subsequently. They may be found in Bode, Uranographia, Berlin, 1801, but as they nearly all represent merely an arbitrary and tasteless fancy, so far as the present work is concerned, 'fugiunt sine nomine turba.' ...

[19] ... Although Egypt may have obtained her god-system or a very important portion of it from the Euphrates Valley, she was not indebted to any foreign region for her original scheme of constellations, which are entirely or almost entirely distinct from those of Babylonia, Phoenicia, Kanaan and Greece (Vide Sir P. le Page Renouf, Calendar of Astronomical Observations found in Royal Tombs of the XXth Dynasty, 1874; The Egyptian Book of the Dead, Parts l.-VI, 1893-7 ; Maspero, The Dawn of Civilization, 1894, pp. 89-97). ...

[88] 'The Star-list of the remaining Southern Figures outside the Zodiac.
I. The Constellation of the Sea-monster. ...

[89] Note.
Cetus (Ketos), the Sea-monster, which appears on the coins of Itanos (Vide inf. p. 189), is in origin the Bab. Mummu-Tiamatu, Heb. Mehumah-Tehom ('the- Chaos-of-the-Deep'), the Moumis and Tauthe of Damaskios (Peri Archon, cxxv.), the Thavatth of Berosos (Chal. i. 4). It represents primarily the state of chaos, 'when the earth was waste and wild, and darkness was upon the face of the deep' (Gen. i. 2); and, secondarily, the reduplication of this in the dark and stormy sea whose tempests, clouds and gales form the brood of Tiamat, which in Euphratean myth were specially regarded as seven Evil Spirits of great and malignant potency. The Deep in archaic idea has a far wider and profounder meaning than is contained in our word 'ocean.' It is formed by the undefined blending of the Oversea - the 'mare magnum sine fine,' in which the solar and lunar barques sail; the Ocean-proper, which of unknown and awful vastness enrings the world ; and the Under-sea, invisible and fathomless to man, and into which the heavenly bodies sink. Tiamat and her brood, as of course, come into conflict with the bright powers. Sun-god and Moon-god; and the victory of Merodakh over her forms one of the staple subjects of Euphratean Hymns, and is reduplicated in Syrian regions in the triumph of Perseus over the Sea-dragon (Ketos), a contest localized at Joppa. The sickle-shaped scimitar of Marduk (= the crescent-moon) is also reproduced in the Sem. khereb, Gk. harpe, with which Barsav-Perseus is armed. This is ever a potent weapon against the darkness-powers (Vide R. B. Jr., U. sec. vii.). Tiamat is the head of the tanninim ('sea-monsters.' 'Whales.' A. V.), and [90] is called in Ak. Bis-bis ('Dragon'), As. Mamlu, and Hahabu, Heb. Rahabh ('Sea-monster,' hence 'Crocodile,' and used symbolically for 'Egypt'). The Ak. bis-bis (intensive reduplication) is connected with the Turko-Tatar root bis, bos, 'to boil,' 'to bubble,' 'to be angry,' 'to be evil,' etc. Bis-bis is 'the Fiery-one,' the Livyathan, who 'maketh the deep to boil like a pot' (Job, xli. 31). And, as illustrated by the root bis, the idea of moral evil and wicked hostility to the gods and the good, is also inextricably connected with Tiamat and her brood. She is further reduplicated in Hydra, and the seven Evil Spirits appear to be reduplicated, to some extent, in certain southern constellations (Vide Smith and Sayce, Chal. Ac. Gen. p. 99). They habitually live 'in the lower part of heaven' (= the nocturnal southern sky) and devise evil 'at sunset.' One is like a Sea-monster (= Cetus), another a Scorpion (= Scorpio), a third a Leopard (= Therion, Lupus), a fourth a Serpent (= Hydra), a fifth a raging Dog (= Canis Maj.), an animal disliked by the Semite, a sixth 'the evil Wind,' the Storm-bird (= Corvus).

Cetus, a type of darkness, is styled by Aratos 'the dusky Monster' (Phainom. 398); κυανεος, Lat. obscurus, expresses the blue-black of the nocturnal sky in a dark constellation. Hesychios has preserved a very interesting name of the Sign - Κεμμορ• μεγα Κητος. This is the Bab.-As. Kumaru ('the Dusky. Vide sup. p. 78), Heb. kemer, 'blackness'; the Khemarim (Zeph. i. 4. = 'Black-robed ones'), are 'the idolatrous priests' (A. V. 2 Kings, xxiii. 5). The Sem. kumaru is borrowed from the Sum.-Ak. kumar, which is connected with the Turko-Tatar root kom, kum, an allied variant of which is tom, tum [91] (Vide Vambery, Etymologisches Wörterhuch, secs. xcvii., clxxix.), one of the root-meanings of which is 'darkness,' 'night,' 'mist.' It would appear probable that Cetus, as well as the hinder part of Sagittarius, was called Mul Kumar ('the Dusky Constellation'); and the name 'the Dusky Star' would be peculiarly appropriate to Mira ('the Wondrous,' o Ceti) which 'during fifteen days attains and preserves its maximum brightness, which is equal to that of a star of the 2nd magnitude. Its light afterwards decreases during three months, until it becomes invisible' (Guillemin, The Heavens, 1878, p. 306). It is not mentioned in the List. ...
DCH
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3440
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

Post by DCHindley »

Robert T,

There is some info in volume 2 of Brown's book that supports your contention that the Pole Star was venerated, and that it traces a circle due to the wobble of the earth's axis.

Robert Brown Jr, Researches into the Origin of the Primitive Constellations (vol 2, 1900)
[176] Section IV. The Pole-Star and his Companions.

'There is a certain star,' says Hipparchos (Vide Vol. I. 269) 'remaining ever at the same place. And this star is the pivot (πόλος) of the Kosmos.' ...

[182] ... Although its steadfastness would naturally excite wonder and admiration, yet prolonged observation necessarily revealed the fact that even Polaris, like everything else, after a certain season abdicated its throne and moved on. The reader is doubtless aware that the attraction of sun and moon on the equatorial protuberance of the earth, produces a certain rolling of our planet on its axis, with the result that from time to time the axis of the equator changes 'its position with respect to the axis of the ecliptic, which remains immovable. And the ends of these axes, or the points they occupy among the stars, called their poles, will change in the same way ; the pole of the equator, round which the heavens appear to move, describing a curve about the pole of the ecliptic ; and since the ecliptic and equator are always nearly at the same angle, this curve will be very nearly a circle' (Blake, Astronomical Myths, p. 99). Hence the Pole-star is that (prominent) star which from time to time is nearest to the pole of the equator, which latter makes a single revolution of its circle in 25,870 years. The brightest star of this polar circle is Vega, which was fairly near the pole about B.C. 12,000. α Draconis was an excellent Pole-star for some 500 years after B.C. 3000. It in turn was superseded by β Ursae Min., which, as noticed (Vol. I. 357), is consequently still called Kochab ('The Star'). Our present Pole-star (α Ursae Min.) is an excellent representative, and by A.D. 2000 will be in almost perfect position. In a consideration of the Euphratean Pole-star of an early period it is very necessary to bear these really simple astronomical [183] facts in mind ; and before going further we notice that the Pole-star B.C. 3500-2000 was α Draconis, situate just between the two Chariots (Bears). ...
However, I do not know what it proves.

DCH
Robert Tulip
Posts: 331
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:44 am

Re: The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

Post by Robert Tulip »

DCHindley wrote:I thought it might be a good idea to present evidence that the Greeks were NOT interested in relating their gods to celestial or astral phenomenon
The paper you quote does not present any evidence to support your contention. The planets are named after the Roman equivalents of Greek Gods, making it highly unlikely that a Roman naming convention for the planets would have no Greek correlate.
DCHindley wrote:there is no constellation named the Leopard
As I said in the opening post, the Leopard was apparently a Babylonian name for Ursa Minor, location of the pole star today. It wasn't a Greek constellation. For the authors of the Apocalypse, it is most likely that their knowledge of precession came from Babylon, so they would have used Babylonian concepts. There really isn't a better explanation of the dragon and the leopard-bear-lion than as description of the actual observed movement of the pole.
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6161
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

Post by neilgodfrey »

Robert Tulip wrote:As I said in the opening post, the Leopard was apparently a Babylonian name for Ursa Minor,
What is your evidence for this?
Robert Tulip wrote:For the authors of the Apocalypse, it is most likely that their knowledge of precession came from Babylon,
What is your evidence for this?
Robert Tulip wrote:There really isn't a better explanation of the dragon and the leopard-bear-lion than as description of the actual observed movement of the pole.
I have already raised difficulties with this interpretation and also the assertion that no better explanation exists yet you only repeat your original contention. No argument or defence required when difficulties are raised?
vridar.org Musings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6161
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

Post by neilgodfrey »

neilgodfrey wrote:
Robert Tulip wrote:For the authors of the Apocalypse, it is most likely that their knowledge of precession came from Babylon,
What is your evidence for this?
Meanwhile I've been looking for some evidence myself and have come across Bruce Malina's account of Babylonian astrology/astronomy spreading West in the Hellenistic era (in his On The Genre and Message of Revelation, p. 6). He cites Brown and Florisoone. We have Brown's volumes linked here; I have found Florisoone's referenced articles at a SAO/NASA ADS site. Can you read French, though?
vridar.org Musings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6161
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

Post by neilgodfrey »

It does not appear from Florisoone's evidence in his Astres article that Leopard was the Babylonian name for Ursa Minor.
vridar.org Musings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science
Ulan
Posts: 1505
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:58 am

Re: The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

Post by Ulan »

[quote="neilgodfrey"]It does not appear from Florisoone's evidence in his Astres article that Leopard was the Babylonian name for Ursa Minor.[/quote]

All I find is Leopard as Cygnus + part of Pegasus.
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6161
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

Post by neilgodfrey »

I have made text machine readable pdf files of the Florisoone articles. Is there a way I can post them as attachments here?

I also discovered the Astres article by Florisoone is cut off at page 168 (16) -- Does anyone know where I might find the remainder of that article?

Thanks
vridar.org Musings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8601
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

Post by Peter Kirby »

neilgodfrey wrote:I have made text machine readable pdf files of the Florisoone articles. Is there a way I can post them as attachments here?
Yes. From the full editor (not the quick reply editor at the bottom of a thread), look below the text area for something called "options." Click the thing to the right, called "Upload attachment." Then "Choose File" and "Add the file."
luw.pdf
(36.36 KiB) Downloaded 494 times
(example)
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
Post Reply