The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

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Robert Tulip
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The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

Post by Robert Tulip »

This post explains apparent mentions of knowledge of the slow movement of the North Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse, the Revelation According to Saint John.

Polaris will reach its closest point to the pole in a century. In the centuries before Christ the stars Kocab and Pherkad in the Little Dipper functioned as the hour hand of a clock, revolving each day around the pole, which was at the base of the hand.

Over centuries ancient star gazers would readily have measured the shift of the pole across the clock line of these stars.

In 2700 BC, the Pole Star was Thuban in Draco the Dragon. In 12,000 BC and 14,000 AD the Pole Star was and will be Vega. This movement of the pole covers 46 lateral degrees of sky, around a circle with one degree per 178.9 years. The pole traverses 144 arc degree segments around the circle, taking about 12,000 years to move from one position to its diametric opposite in the cycle, a measurement feasible for ancient astronomers.

As a first Biblical observation, measurement of this polar movement over 12,000 years and 144 degrees provides the basis for Revelation 21:16-17 "The city length is 12,000 stadia. Its wall is 144 cubits."

The observable movement of the pole reveals the star clock of precession, caused by what Copernicus called the third movement of the earth, the wobble of the celestial pole around the ecliptic pole every 25,765 years. Isaac Newton discovered this movement is caused by lunisolar torque dragging the oblation of the equator. References in Revelation prove that this movement was known and used in the Bible.

References in ancient myth support the idea that the ancients knew more about the regular motion of the heavens than is now generally acknowledged. Ancient astronomers could easily see that the celestial pole is the position around which the heavens revolve each night. However, what they knew in addition to this simple observation is far from clear.

One Biblical text that appears to refer to this observation is Revelation 13:2 - “The beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.”

Could this symbolic text encode an actual empirical knowledge of the movement of the pole, like the accurate astronomy in the measurement of the holy city against the pole? The case looks persuasive. The north pole is a symbol of the unchanging eternal stability of the heavens, the throne of the sky. As such, the “power, throne and authority” given by the dragon readily refer to the celestial point about which the whole cosmos appears to revolve. The dragon is the constellation Draco. Thuban is in the tail of Draco and was the Pole Star in 2700 BC. Since ancient times the pole has precessed out of Draco and through Ursa Minor.

The bear-lion-leopard in the Apocalypse matches directly to the adjacent constellations Leo the Lion and the Bears Ursa Major and Ursa Minor, which were called the Leopard in Babylon. The pole has moved from the dragon to the leopard-bear-lion over the last 6000 years. Looking at the sky, the symbolic language of a creature with bear’s feet and a lion’s head makes simple sense as describing the observable historic movement of the pole.

The pole precession from the constellation of Draco the Dragon in ancient times to its present position in the constellation of the Little Bear, Ursa Minor, near Polaris is shown at Image.

What did the ancients know about this astronomical movement? The gift of power, seat and authority from the dragon to the bear-lion-leopard mentioned in Revelation 13:2 correlates precisely to observation of precession of the north pole over historical times. Revelation reverses the Daniel 7 chronology and presents the second creature as combining the first of Daniel's three animals. This matches to actual observation of the shift of the pole that was known to the ancients as a marker for time. While the Apocalyse makes an obvious use of Daniel on the surface, in fact it describes a deeper natural observation, an accurate vision of the long term change of the sky.

The whole symbol is allegory for a pattern in the stars. The pattern of the shift from the dragon to the bear is obvious once precession is understood. The lion and leopard add to it in ways that amplify the meaning.

Cultural conflict over attitudes to the stars in the ancient world was strong. Many pagan cultures venerated the sun and moon and stars, something specifically prohibited by Judaism, for example in Deuteronomy 4:19 which states "And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars —all the heavenly array —do not be enticed into bowing down to them."

Knowledge of precession need not constitute 'bowing down', but it seems this line was blurred. The third century writer Hippolytus of Rome presented a blistering attack on a group known as the Peratae, including for their attitude to Draco. Hippolytus's extant work is available at http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050105.htm Hippolytus says “as they wistfully gazed upward upon heaven, the Chaldeans asserted that the sun, moon and five visible planets contain a reason for the efficient causes of the occurrence of all the events that happen unto us.” Discussion of the movement of the celestial pole is caught up in this same cultural conflict. Hippolytus condemns “these, falsifying the name of truth, who proclaim... an insurrection of Aeons.”

Hippolytus discusses the Peratae doctrine of the serpent, explaining that they identify the serpent with the stars of the north pole, formerly occupied by the constellation Draco the Dragon. He says the Peratae taught that “the blessed, looking upward on the firmament, will behold at the mighty summit of heaven the beauteous image of the serpent, turning itself, and becoming an originating principle of every motion to all things that are being produced. Without him nothing consists, either in heaven, or on earth. or under the earth. The great wonder which is beheld in the firmament by those who are able to observe it, ignorance is in the habit of affirming, is that in heaven Draco revolves, marvel mighty of monster dread.”

Here we find an approved ancient critique of a seemingly popular view that the north celestial pole should have a central role in cosmology, “at the mighty summit of heaven”. This material shows the sensitivities surrounding an overt discussion of precession, especially one linking it to symbolic interpretations.

Early texts must have contained more explicit accounts about precession, but these were lost as society sought greater conformity of views. The collapse of Greco-Roman civilization involved the loss of a lot of learning. Its presence in the Apocalypse shows that ancient astronomers knew a lot more about precession than extant records show. However, as Copernicus indicates, precession was an area marked for criticism because of its association with teachings that were in conflict with the subsequent dominant views.

The location of Draco among the stars that never set in northern latitudes gives it a significance, even though it is fainter than other constellations. Thuban was the pole star at about 2700 BC. Revelation was written in the Common Era, when Draco was definitely seen as a dragon. All the writers had to know was that the pole used to be in Draco, not that Draco had always been pictured as a dragon. Sir Norman Lockyer claims that in Egypt the myth of Horus transferred from Draco/Hathor to the Thigh, our Ursa Major.

Hippolytus explains his overt agenda to exterminate Gnostic thought with its unacceptable cosmic imagery. His strong language helps to show why the Bible authors would have concealed their real intent. The hostile trend of thought displayed by Hippolytus would have had strong similarities with responses to these Biblical ideas when they were first circulated.

I am suggesting the authors of the Apocalypse were part of a community who had access to accurate scientific knowledge, to the extent then possible, of the drift of the stars due to precession, and that they used this knowledge as a sort of 'star clock', an accurate way to describe the slow measurement of time.

My starting point is the scientific observation of how the stars have shifted due to precession, matching modern knowledge. The extent this information was available in the ancient world is uncertain, but the material I have explained here is definitive. This millennial clock has primary markers at the equator and the poles. If ancient authors wished to describe the real movement of time over the period of recorded history, then describing how the pole had shifted from the dragon to the bear is a good way to do it.

The cultural dispute about the status of astronomy in New Testament days was quite strong. The destruction of Greco-Roman and Egyptian centers of learning was a main factor in the rise of the Dark Ages. Astronomy was linked to broader pagan cultural traditions, and the seers of Egypt and other mystery groups had a lot of knowledge that has not survived. For example the Library at Alexandria would have held information on these topics, while the reason the Great Pyramid has an airshaft pointing towards the North Celestial Pole is now unknown.

The text about the dragon giving its authority to the bear-lion-leopard is explaining the actual movement of time over history, with the shift of the ‘seat of authority’ about which all the heavens revolve, the North Celestial Pole, from the dragon to the bear. Popular readings of this text would have associated such a scientific explanation with cosmic-oriented mysteries that were changing in favour, such as the mysteries of Mithras, Isis and Eleusis. So it seems the authors considered it prudent to conceal their scientific description of time within allegorical language.

An interesting website with information about Ursa Minor and the North Pole in mythology is Constellation of Words (http://www.constellationsofwords.com/Co ... Minor.html)
This site provides interesting comment about phrases such as ‘get your bearings’ and ''cynosure' (possibly sinecure?) and how the ancient Greek Thales may have suggested knowledge of the pole shift in about 600 BC.

A 10 MB 173 page pdf file “Iconographic and linguistic evidence concerning leopard symbolism: Slide presentation, 6th Round Table on Myth - Harvard University, Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, 8-10 May 2004 provides good material.

If we look at the sky and ask "Where can we find a regular marker that shows the change of position over thousands of years?", we basically have two good candidates, the pole and the equator. It is a reasonable hypothesis that the Bible authors asked this question. They frequently discuss time on thousand year scales, and they were far more observant and knowledgeable about the visible stars than people generally are today. They could readily see that the pole was a useful star clock for the time scale they were interested in, especially using the pointers as the hour hand, so they had motive to refer to it.

http://www.constellationsofwords.com/stars/Polaris.html says Polaris has been called "Navel of the World", "Gate of Heaven", "Hub of the Cosmos", "the Highest Peak of the World Mountain", "Lodestar" "the Steering Star" "the Ship Star" and Stella Maris "Star of the Sea". Greek navigators of old called Polaris; Kynosoura, which means "the Dog's Tail". The name came into our English language as Cynosure, which means "an object that serves as a focal point of attention and admiration" or "Something that serves to guide"." These traditional names for Polaris are very similar to the Biblical "power, seat and authority" as indicating the point around which the heavens revolve.

Wim van Binsbergen, chair of intercultural philosophy, Rotterdam, and senior researcher at African Studies Centre, Leiden, wrote “Long-range mythical continuities across Asia and Africa - Iconographic and linguistic evidence concerning leopard symbolism”, and was presented to a Round Table on Myth at Harvard University in 2004. The author spent two decades from the 1960s in Africa as an anthropologist and historian, and has a senior academic position in the cross-cultural study of myth.

Van Binsbergen’s work on leopard and lion mythology provides supportive evidence for my contention that the handing of ‘power, seat and authority’ from the dragon to the bear-lion-leopard actually describes the astronomical observation of precession of the north celestial pole. He says “ancient astronomies present considerable indications of the wide spread and persistence of the cosmology of the lion and the leopard” with the lion/leopard pair “symbolically elaborated into a fully-fledged cosmology encompassing most aspects of the human experience.” The leopard skin “is widely considered to represent the star-spangled night sky as a whole.” However, “the Ancient Egyptian and Babylonian material contains the suggestion that, if the leopard is to be associated with any asterism at all, it is to be the constellation of Ursa Minor, in or near which (depending on the precise historical period) the celestial pole finds itself.”

A key astronomical question that this material raises is whether the ancients had mapped the location of the ecliptic pole, marking the axis of the sun. From records of the movement of the celestial pole from Thuban towards Polaris, it is a fairly simple piece of astral measurement to work out that the pole is wobbling around the dragon’s foot, location of the solar axis. This shows that from the stable viewpoint of the ecliptic pole, the dragon’s tail occupies one third of sky, standing in front of the woman Virgo, while the Bears stand beneath the lion Leo, and the whole circle is 12,000 years across, made up of 144 arc units. These Biblical references all support the hypothesis that these symbols are concealed description of actual astronomical observations.

This reference to the ecliptic pole explains Revelation 12:3-4: "in heaven a dragon tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky. The dragon stood in front of the woman." From the ecliptic pole as the central point around which the stars revolve over precessional time scale, the tail of the dragon occupies one third of the sky, and stands in front of the constellation Virgo, the woman.

The shift from the dragon to the bear is straightforward as the movement of the celestial pole from Draco to Ursa as a description of 6000 years of historically known time. Why then does the Bible speak of a leopard-bear-lion? Van Binsbergen provides evidence for the link between the lion and the leopard, and how the leopard directly links to the North Pole. In particular, he presents evidence of ancient mythological links between leopard symbolism and Ursa Minor, and the stars more generally, in line with the requirements of the hypothesis of this thread.

This observational timescale may reflect Zoroastrian astronomical sources, such as the Bundahishn (http://zoroastrianastrology.blogspot.co ... ennia.html), with this source arguing the day-millennium principle actually refers to the bimillennial period of 2000 years, stating “the age of each sector allocated to a constellation of the zodiac is estimated at approximately 2,150 years. It appears that some Zoroastrian texts round this figure to an even 2,000 years, sometimes calling the two millennia, the bimillennium, a millennium.. This old Zoroastrian text says in translation "six thousand years were from the Ram/Lamb (Aries) up to the Ear of Grain (Virgo), and each constellation ruled a millennium". It is a simple observation that precession of the equinox from Aries to Virgo takes 12,000 years and each constellation rules about 2000 years. This material suggests the convention of the day-millennium equation is a corruption of an older accurate vision from Babylon which based its theories of time on meticulous astronomical observation.

This hypothesis of astronomical allegory in ancient texts helps to see context and background for writings that otherwise defy rational explanation. The authors’ objectives include an implicit assertion that they are describing a correct cosmology (faithful and true, etc). In many respects science can readily demonstrate their cosmology is incorrect and limited. However, within the limits of the knowledge available to them, especially the recorded observation of the movement of the visible stars over many centuries, they had accurate observations that are a key part of the background context. Hipparchus used old Babylonian star records well before the common era to deduce precession. The hypothesis I have presented here, that there is a hidden description of polar precession as a symbol for the passage of time, suggests that the ancient authors had access to more accurate knowledge than is generally acknowledged.

The idea of stars as markers of history suggests some “reflection” on earth of observable patterns seen in the sky. This need not be in anyway some unscientific action at a distance, any more than a clock mechanism causes people to act at a certain time. The idea “as in heaven, so on earth” is an old cosmic axiom that helps to explain why the ancient authors would use movement of the stars to explain the structure of time. This equation means the markers of time visible in the sky can be used as a long term clock to measure the passage of events on earth. The slow drift of the Pole from the dragon to the leopard-bear-lion as a marker for the duration of history fits well within this astronomical and philosophical context and helps to explain it.

The authors understood the observable astronomy of polar precession, they wished to describe markers of long term cosmic change, they found such a marker in precession, they encountered cultural opposition to the use of this natural observation, and so they concealed this information as symbol. This hypothesis explains the data as part of a coherent scientific theory. Pointing to texts that have distorted or no apparent cosmic reference does not falsify the theory, especially given the authors’ incentives to conceal this material to prevent it being burnt. The underlying science will not be falsified because it is abundantly confirmed by Newtonian mechanics of axial wobble and climatic evidence.

The fall of Rome led to the obliteration of all knowledge of Egyptian writing, and destruction of most Egyptian texts. Knowledge about precession, a complex astronomical observation associated with secret mysteries, could also have been lost as collateral damage from the broader destruction of classical culture.

Everyone at similar latitudes sees the same sky. Apart from proper motion the only difference between then and now is due to precession. Fragmentary evidence that I have cited here, and other evidence that I would be happy to cite, indicates considerably wider and older knowledge of precession than the minimalist interpretation, suggesting much more contact and coherence between different civilizations than is sometimes imagined. The handing of power seat and authority from the dragon to the leopard-bear-lion primarily refers to the precession of the north celestial pole over historical time, as the most logical and coherent explanation of the text.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

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Robert Tulip wrote:The handing of power seat and authority from the dragon to the leopard-bear-lion primarily refers to the precession of the north celestial pole over historical time, as the most logical and coherent explanation of the text.
How can anyone conclude that their speculations (I loved the way all the "could have been" phrases turned into "this is how it was" conclusions) are "the most logical and coherent explanation of the text" unless they first raise all the possible objections to their argument and show how they are answered, and second, address the other explanations and show why they are not more logical or coherent?

Oh never mind, I know you hate answering that question with any clearly unambiguous logically coherent reply. . . . :?
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Robert Tulip
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Re: The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

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If the universe exists as described by science, then it makes sense to explore how description of the universe is included in the Bible. The so-called "other explanations" of the Apocalypse that you mention do not exist except in Adventist crazy land. The Apocalypse is a mystery, because no one has bothered to look at its coherent astronomy. Neil, I have the impression you are not even sure if you know the universe exists as described by science.
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Re: The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

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Robert Tulip wrote:Neil, I have the impression you are not even sure if you know the universe exists as described by science.
I see. So if scholars have coherent cultural and literary explanations for Revelation (even "astronomical" ones that don't cohere with your views) they are living in Adventist crazy land. (Um, have you ever read any scholarly analysis and literary critical studies of Revelation?)

And if I find their methods of explanation and handling of evidence to be more valid and logical than your speculations, then in your view I am judged as not even being sure the universe exists as described by science.

You've already said I'm a hard-hearted psychologically perverse person who calls evil good and good evil for failing to agree with your views, so I guess it's no big step to believe I do not even believe the real universe exists.

I guess all this is one way of handling people who disagree with your views on methodological and logical grounds.
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Robert Tulip
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Re: The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

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Sorry Neil, for you to assert errors of method while failing to engage on content is unscientific on your part. You have not made any substantive comment on anything I have said. I am very familiar with scholarly literature on the Revelation. For you to say something in that literature might prove me wrong, but you won't say what, is not a real contribution. It is not up to me to raise objections, especially objections based on the false premise of the Historical Jesus. Given that is wrong, we need something better, coherent with actual observation and facts, ie what the ancients knew about astronomy. If you have logical objections by all means raise them.

I did not say that you call evil good. I said the church has done so.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

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Robert Tulip wrote:Sorry Neil, for you to assert errors of method while failing to engage on content is unscientific on your part. You have not made any substantive comment on anything I have said. I am very familiar with scholarly literature on the Revelation. For you to say something in that literature might prove me wrong, but you won't say what, is not a real contribution. It is not up to me to raise objections, especially objections based on the false premise of the Historical Jesus. Given that is wrong, we need something better, coherent with actual observation and facts, ie what the ancients knew about astronomy. If you have logical objections by all means raise them.

I did not say that you call evil good. I said the church has done so.
Your content is meaningless unless validly and sensibly applied. Method and logic tell us if you're doing sensible things with your content. I have raised the methodological and logical questions over and over but you never reply or you simply assert you use the hypothetic0-deductive method even when I point out that you skip a vital step in that. In one discussion we had once you even disputed what the world acknowledges to be a logical fallacy.

I can apply your same content -- as I showed you -- to Casey's recent book.

You were the one who said your argument was superior to all others. So it is up to you to demonstrate that by showing us how it is superior to others. You didn't do that. You said other points of view belong to Adventist crazy land, but that's not exactly a logical argument.

You don't even address what surely you must realize others will note to be logical fallacies in your fantasy speculation, nor even what surely you must see others will see problematic in your "they would do this" etc type claims.

You just make a lot of wild imaginative speculation as if oblivious to what other serious explanations exist -- you seem to think other explanations depend on belief in a historical Jesus. That's rubbish.

What's the point of my telling you what other scholarly lit there is on this when you've already made it clear that you think it's all bunk anyway? I'm in the middle of reading two works on apocalyptic literature in the second temple and early christian eras and gathering a raft of other sources on this topic. I would have thought you'd have done the same before you made such a declaration that your imaginative explanation was superior to everything else that exists out there.
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Re: The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

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Robert Tulip wrote:This post explains apparent mentions of knowledge of the slow movement of the North Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse, the Revelation According to Saint John. ...

Over centuries ancient star gazers would readily have measured the shift of the pole across the clock line of these stars.
Perhaps so: but how do we know whether they did? What is needed here is a source book of ancient writers on the subject. It is remarkably difficult, admittedly, to access ancient technical texts in translation, and this certainly includes astrological texts.

Note that this post could really do with footnotes.
(snip material on how the pole moves relative to the constellations)

As a first Biblical observation, measurement of this polar movement over 12,000 years and 144 degrees provides the basis for Revelation 21:16-17 "The city length is 12,000 stadia. Its wall is 144 cubits."
Not unless there is some evidence of it. This isn't enough.
The observable movement of the pole reveals the star clock of precession, caused by what Copernicus called the third movement of the earth, the wobble of the celestial pole around the ecliptic pole every 25,765 years. ... References in Revelation prove that this movement was known and used in the Bible.
Which references?
References in ancient myth support the idea that the ancients knew more about the regular motion of the heavens than is now generally acknowledged. Ancient astronomers could easily see that the celestial pole is the position around which the heavens revolve each night.
Which ancient astronomical texts show this?

I'm getting a little frustrated here. There are some interesting ideas in here, and I am myself interested in ancient astrological texts - enough to have a few - but I don't see anything in the way of evidence for any of this.
One Biblical text that appears to refer to this observation is Revelation 13:2 - “The beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.”

Could this symbolic text encode an actual empirical knowledge of the movement of the pole, like the accurate astronomy in the measurement of the holy city against the pole? The case looks persuasive.
The case has yet to be made. Don't do this.
The north pole is a symbol of the unchanging eternal stability of the heavens, the throne of the sky.
Which ancient writers say so?
As such, the “power, throne and authority” given by the dragon readily refer to the celestial point about which the whole cosmos appears to revolve.
Why? Evidence?
The dragon is the constellation Draco.
Evidence?

(Snip more claims)
Cultural conflict over attitudes to the stars in the ancient world was strong. Many pagan cultures venerated the sun and moon and stars, something specifically prohibited by Judaism, for example in Deuteronomy 4:19 which states "And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars —all the heavenly array —do not be enticed into bowing down to them." ....
The ancients tended to think of the planets etc as gods. Christianity's hostility to this was a real advance, in that it made astronomy possible.

(snip)
Early texts must have contained more explicit accounts about precession, but these were lost as society sought greater conformity of views. The collapse of Greco-Roman civilization involved the loss of a lot of learning.
It is quite unlikely that the changes in late Roman society obstructed the transmission of astronomical data.

The collapse did; but not of technical learning, for this was transmitted to the Arabs, remember. This bias towards handbooks is very pronounced in the proportions of ancient texts that survive. 20% of all surviving Greek literature is the works of Galen, the medical writer.
Its presence in the Apocalypse shows ...
No such presence has been shown.
Hippolytus explains his overt agenda to exterminate Gnostic thought with its unacceptable cosmic imagery.
Hippolytus is opposed to gnosticism because it is pagan, not because it is astronomical.
I am suggesting the authors of the Apocalypse were part of a community who had access to accurate scientific knowledge....
At this point the fairies come in and dance all over the screen. I couldn't be bothered to read further.
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Re: The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

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I'd be interested to see some explanation and research demonstrating the plausibility of astronomical observations being kept across thousands of years (12,000 years? 6000 years? even 1000 years?) so that one cultural entity could draw conclusions about precession from them. As I posted elsewhere in reply to this sort of claim, is not the most plausible response to the minutest variation over such a time -- imagining the social structures persisting through all that time to maintain any sort of intellectual continuity -- to question the accuracy of the earlier records? Unless we have evidence to the contrary surely we must default to the simplest explanation.
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Re: The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

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Roger Pearse wrote:Perhaps so: but how do we know whether they did?
You may have to wait for a reply to these specific questions since Robert is currently (no doubt) still putting together a detailed response to my similar queries at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=471&start=40#p8655 and viewtopic.php?f=3&t=471&start=40#p8657

The irony is that, like you, I am also very interested in astronomical/astrological knowledge in the ancient world and how it may show through in texts such as Revelation (and elsewhere in Israelite religion). (I was a very active serious astronomer and still maintain a strong interest so Robert's regular jibes at my knowledge of astronomy only leave me smiling.)

I'm reminded to some extent of Maurice Casey's obsession with Aramaic. His approach to the gospels is effectively monomaniacal. He can see or acknowledge no alternative explanations and is even reduced to attacking the professional abilities and motives (to the extent of suggesting some of his colleagues are anti-semites) because they do not swallow the logical flaws in his argument about the historical Jesus or the narrow range of his evidence.
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Robert Tulip
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Re: The Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse

Post by Robert Tulip »

Roger Pearse wrote:
Robert Tulip wrote:This post explains apparent mentions of knowledge of the slow movement of the North Celestial Pole in the Apocalypse, the Revelation According to Saint John. ... Over centuries ancient star gazers would readily have measured the shift of the pole across the clock line of these stars.
Perhaps so: but how do we know whether they did?
How we know is the subject of my explanation. We know because they could see the position of the celestial pole as the fixed spot around which all the stars appear to move, they accurately documented the positions of the stars and planets over centuries, and this observable shift of the pole from the dragon to the bear-lion-leopard is the only coherent explanation for the shift of power seat and authority of the dragon to the bear-lion-leopard.
Roger Pearse wrote: What is needed here is a source book of ancient writers on the subject.
That is a great suggestion, but the topic is fragmentary and badly served by academic literature. Neugebauer’s critique of Pan-Babylonian knowledge is a case in point – his arguments are very weak, but are widely accepted, as explained by Gary Thomson at http://members.westnet.com.au/gary-davi ... age9f.html Nicholas Campion wrote an interesting book called The Great Year, but it is very weak on this material. Then we go into more contentious texts such as Hamlet’s Mill which provide extensive fragmentary speculation, much of it good but not really a source book.
Roger Pearse wrote: It is remarkably difficult, admittedly, to access ancient technical texts in translation, and this certainly includes astrological texts.
A bigger problem is that this whole topic was subject to repression and secrecy, so what the ancients thought has to be reconstructed from fragments.
Roger Pearse wrote:
Note that this post could really do with footnotes.
Yes, but I do provide links to sources.
Roger Pearse wrote:
(snip material on how the pole moves relative to the constellations)

As a first Biblical observation, measurement of this polar movement over 12,000 years and 144 degrees provides the basis for Revelation 21:16-17 "The city length is 12,000 stadia. Its wall is 144 cubits."
Not unless there is some evidence of it. This isn't enough.
I have explained in summary form, which I will expand.
Roger Pearse wrote:
The observable movement of the pole reveals the star clock of precession, caused by what Copernicus called the third movement of the earth, the wobble of the celestial pole around the ecliptic pole every 25,765 years. ... References in Revelation prove that this movement was known and used in the Bible.
Which references?
That is the point of the thread, to analyse specific references. In addition to the Bear-Lion-Leopard, the dragon’s tail over a third of the sky in front of the woman, and the holy city as allegory for accurate knowledge of the visible sky, Revelation contains many more simple astral references. The tree of life has twelve fruit, one for each month, and grows on both sides of the crystalline river of life. This matches exactly to the simple observable relation between the zodiac and the Milky Way, the stellar framework well known to the ancients.
Roger Pearse wrote:
References in ancient myth support the idea that the ancients knew more about the regular motion of the heavens than is now generally acknowledged. Ancient astronomers could easily see that the celestial pole is the position around which the heavens revolve each night.
Which ancient astronomical texts show this?
There are many. It is a simple major astronomical fact. Cicero in http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... m/2B*.html quotes Aratus: “Swiftly the other heavenly bodies glide, All day and night travelling with the sky, [and no one who loves to contemplate the uniformity of nature can ever be tired of gazing at them.] The furthest tip of either axle end is called the pole. [Round the pole circle the two Bears, which never set;] One of these twain the Greeks call Cynosure, The other Helicē is named; [and the latter's extremely bright stars, visible to us all night long,] our countrymen the Seven Triones call; and the little Cynosure consists of an equal number of stars similarly grouped, and revolves round the same pole:
Roger Pearse wrote: I'm getting a little frustrated here. There are some interesting ideas in here, and I am myself interested in ancient astrological texts - enough to have a few - but I don't see anything in the way of evidence for any of this.
Unfortunately Roger, as you have shown before, your criteria for evidence are faulty. I provide the evidence of exact major correlation between the visible heavens and the imagined heaven. This is the basis of hypothesis that this correlation was intentional. If evidence to your limited criteria was readily available this would all be well known already. I am discussing it here because it is new research.
Roger Pearse wrote:
One Biblical text that appears to refer to this observation is Revelation 13:2 - “The beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.” Could this symbolic text encode an actual empirical knowledge of the movement of the pole, like the accurate astronomy in the measurement of the holy city against the pole? The case looks persuasive.
The case has yet to be made. Don't do this.
My claim that the case is persuasive is supported by the detailed arguments in the opening post. It is a very faulty piece of rhetoric to say a statement of intent is not a proof.
Roger Pearse wrote:
The north pole is a symbol of the unchanging eternal stability of the heavens, the throne of the sky.
Which ancient writers say so?
For example, Isaiah 14:13 http://biblehub.com/isaiah/14-13.htm describes “my throne on high in the far reaches of the north.” Commentary there says “Hindus place the Meru, the dwelling-place of their gods, in the north, in the Himalayan mountains. So the Greeks, in the northern Olympus. The Persian followers of Zoroaster put the Ai-bordsch in the Caucasus north of them. The allusion to the stars harmonizes with this; namely, that those near the North Pole.”

To understand why the pole is seen as a throne of the heavens, see also Hebrews 12:22 “Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and an innumerable host of angels..” The pole is the high fixed point above all activity on Earth, providing the obvious allegory for the position of God in Mount Zion.

There is a direct match between the “river of water of life, clear as crystal” and the Milky Way, and the statement at Rev 22:1 that this river “proceeds out of the throne of God” matches directly to the path of the Milky Way past the Celestial Poles.
Roger Pearse wrote:
As such, the “power, throne and authority” given by the dragon readily refer to the celestial point about which the whole cosmos appears to revolve.
Why? Evidence?
Roger, the purpose of the post is to explain why and to describe the status of the evidence.
Roger Pearse wrote:
The dragon is the constellation Draco.
Evidence? (Snip more claims)
Since you completely ignored what I explained about Hippolytus and his critique of the Peratae on Draco as the dragon constellation at the North PoIe, it is unsurprising you jump in with this foolish question.
Roger Pearse wrote: The ancients tended to think of the planets etc as gods. Christianity's hostility to this was a real advance, in that it made astronomy possible.
Here we get into the culture war. Christianity hardly ‘made astronomy possible’. Christianity held back astronomy. If Christians had any interest in astronomy they would have preserved writings such as Hipparchus, known as the greatest Greek astronomer. This implication that ancients were somehow magical while Christians were scientific inverts the historical reality. It was not until the rediscovery of Hermetic writings suppressed by Christianity until the Renaissance that astronomy was able to get going. Yes there was a lot of literal magical religion about planets as gods, but enlightened seers have always understood such language as allegory.
Roger Pearse wrote: It is quite unlikely that the changes in late Roman society obstructed the transmission of astronomical data. The collapse did; but not of technical learning, for this was transmitted to the Arabs, remember. This bias towards handbooks is very pronounced in the proportions of ancient texts that survive. 20% of all surviving Greek literature is the works of Galen, the medical writer.
A medical handbook is a very different thing from astronomy, which was a religious topic associated with secret mystery traditions. I explained earlier how esoteric literature was banned on pain of death.
Roger Pearse wrote: Hippolytus is opposed to gnosticism because it is pagan, not because it is astronomical.
And yet the quote I provide from Hippolytus proves that his focus on the Peratae Gnostic supposed error focuses on their astronomical knowledge, which ironically is perfectly accurate, while the Christian mocks their interest in empirical observation.
Roger Pearse wrote:
I am suggesting the authors of the Apocalypse were part of a community who had access to accurate scientific knowledge....
At this point the fairies come in and dance all over the screen. I couldn't be bothered to read further.
Well thank you for taking the trouble to comment Roger, but your severely ignorant and biased statements about Hippolytus, Galen, Christian Astronomy, etc, illustrate that your opinion on this material is wrong. If the authors lacked access to knowledge, why are their symbols so exactly aligned with that knowledge? Mount Zion is the North Celestial Pole. Its 12,000 stadia diameter matches to the measured width of the polar movement in years. Its 144 cubits match to the distance travelled by the pole in degrees. Its twelve foundation stones are by old Babylonian tradition the twelve signs of the zodiac in reverse from Pisces to Aries, matching to the precession of the equinox as observed in ancient times. It is fine to say that correlation is not causation, except when it comes to a question like whether night follows day. The point of the Biblical encoding of this material is to explain that cultural hostility meant this knowledge had been lost, but the ‘new heaven and new earth’ will be known when the accurate basis of religion in science is restored.

I am presenting a new theory of the role of astronomy in the construction of Biblical cosmology. This theory is highly contested due to a large number of factors, for example
• The dominance of traditional Christian views that assume Biblical texts were primarily intended as literal rather than allegorical
• The scale of political conflict regarding Gnostic thought, with its systematic elimination by orthodoxy, such that survival of Gnostic views is fragmentary.
• Nothing of the work of Hipparchus, reputed discoverer of precession, survives except in commentaries.
• The mutual cultural antipathy between religion, science and astrology, such that efforts to combine them are viewed with prejudice and ignorance within all three areas
• Scholarly bias: Nineteenth century work on such topics mixed together good research with false speculation. So there is an automatic strong suspicion that claims of greater connection between ancient religions are wrong.
• These suspicions play into cultural politics regarding cosmology, jumping to assumption that factual statements and claims are merely speculative and ungrounded.
• The Pan-Babylonian school argued ancient astronomers were familiar with precession, but their critic Otto Neugebauer has become a dominant figure with his claim that precession was unknown
• The false method of saying that if a claim cannot be sourced explicitly and directly to an extant ancient document then it can be ignored.

Against these and other factors stands the simple coherent parsimonious and predictive elegance of the presence of precession of the North Celestial Pole as encoded in the description of the Holy City in Revelation 21. The hypothesis that this text encodes precession provides an intellectual foundation for scientific analysis of the Bible.
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