Why Pilate? Because of: “PâLaT bar-Abbas” : “Free Barabbas!”

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of: “PâLaT bar-Abbas” : “Free Barabbas!”

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:52 am

Are you a historicist? Then this is not the thread for you.
Every thread should be open to every opinion. Again, I think spending so much time in isolation has driven you mad.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Giuseppe
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of: “PâLaT bar-Abbas” : “Free Barabbas!”

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:58 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:49 am
He is going to be a great scholar.
How can be a “great scholar” one who has done a so failed criticism of Carrier? It is completely “beyond me”.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Why Pilate? Because of: “PâLaT bar-Abbas” : “Free Barabbas!”

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:02 am

So the fact that you like Carrier means he 'won.' That's the bottom line. Tell me Giuseppe can you point to any examples where people you disagree with have 'won' debates? Can you give examples where you acknowledge arguments that destroy your own prejudices? What's the point
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Why Pilate? Because of: “PâLaT bar-Abbas” : “Free Barabbas!”

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:04 am

To argue that someone who was trained at Catholic University in Australia, Yale and now Stanford is a terrible scholar is simply ridiculous. Being educated is worth something. You're an idiot.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Giuseppe
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of: “PâLaT bar-Abbas” : “Free Barabbas!”

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:05 am

Yourself are an example of one who has won partially the debate insofar I see now that the original readers of the Barabbas episode could only be Jews (adorers of YHWH) to make the point about PiLaTe as "releaser" of the evil goat of Lev 16.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of: “PâLaT bar-Abbas” : “Free Barabbas!”

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:06 am

And besides I like Daniel as a person. We had a lot of fun researching and working together - or at least I did. I have absolutely no regrets. It's nice to spend time with bright young people. Nice break from my day job. Would do it again over and over again. The problem is that as he goes up the food chain he won't want to co-write an article with me again. And I find that completely understandable from a career POV. Perfectly understandable as I want all the best for him. It's like having a one night stand with a drunken 19 year old future supermodel. I got lucky.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Giuseppe
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of: “PâLaT bar-Abbas” : “Free Barabbas!”

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:09 am

I insist: Gullotta is a bad scholar insofar I read this about him. Period.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of: “PâLaT bar-Abbas” : “Free Barabbas!”

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:11 am

I insist: Gullotta is a bad scholar insofar I read this about him. Period.
You know what I am stopping this right here. This is beyond the usual crazy. He's going to be a big deal, this Daniel will. I've worked with him. His methods and his seriousness guarantee his future in academia as far as I am concerned. I won't engage in any more personal attacks against a wonderful emerging scholar. End of discussion.
to make the point about PiLaTe as "releaser" of the evil goat of Lev 16.
But PLT means for someone to escape something or someone else. It does not mean someone who releases someone else. The context you cite - of a crowd shouting a word derived from the PLT at Pilate simply does not allow for the word to mean 'release' or 'free Barabbas!' It doesn't work. The Peshitta has the word you would expect - a word which means 'to loosen, release' which is exactly what the context requires. What you suggest is ridiculous. Should you argue that the original phrase was directed at Barabbas - i.e. 'run away' or 'escape Barabbas!' fine. That might work. But this isn't what you are saying and it is highly speculative as there is no known text which understands the dialogue to have said this. Nevertheless to go back to the original point, what you are suggesting is silly and unworkable. If you had any sense of the language you would see this. But you don't and as such this is a big waste of time.

You can cite all the poets, theosophists, 'spiritualists,' bloggers you want. It doesn't matter. The word can't mean what you suggest it means. This is so frustrating. Bye.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Giuseppe
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of: “PâLaT bar-Abbas” : “Free Barabbas!”

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:41 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:11 am
But PLT means for someone to escape something or someone else. It does not mean someone who releases someone else. The context you cite - of a crowd shouting a word derived from the PLT at Pilate simply does not allow for the word to mean 'release' or 'free Barabbas!' It doesn't work.
Your logic fails completely as I have shown already in the first (!) page of this thread:
Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:15 am
I don't see a difference between "free Barabbas!" and Psalm 17:13:
Arise, O LORD, confront him, bring him low;
Deliver [palat] my soul from the wicked with Your sword,

According to your stupid, really stupid!, "logic", God is the guy who has to escape (double sic) since he is addressed by the Psalmist with the invocation "PâLaT my soul from the wicked with Your sword". Just as Pilate would be, according to your stupid logic, who has to escape per the invocation "PâLaT Barabbas".

Really? Are you serious?


How on the earth can God - the god of the Jews!!! - be a fugitive (in the your stupid dogmatic sense of PLT) ?

Please, prove me that God, as he is addressed by "PâLaT my soul", is a stupid fugitive. And not rather the "deliverer" of the soul just as Pilate is the "deliverer" of Barabbas, who is the evil goat of Leviticus 16, per Ehrman (surely a greater authority than your Gullotta).


That Pilate is the "deliverer" in virtue of PLT is also explained by the use of PLT in this Psalm, where it means "deliverance", resembling so the Syrian first meaning of PLT:

Thou art my hiding place thou shalt preserve me from trouble thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance [p̄al-lêṭ;] Selah

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/fallet_6405.htm

The thing is so impossible as a "coincidence", that the stupid directors (probably, Christians) of the French page of wikipedia have "Pâlat Barabbas!" without explaining it!







The Peshitta has the word you would expect - a word which means 'to loosen, release' which is exactly what the context requires. What you suggest is ridiculous. Should you argue that the original phrase was directed at Barabbas - i.e. 'run away' or 'escape Barabbas!' fine.
You are an idiot. "PâLaT my soul" was addressed to God (per Psalm 17:13), who is the "deliverer", just as "PâLaT Barabbas" was addressed to Pilate, who is the "deliverer".
That might work. But this isn't what you are saying
I have shown you as a valid counter-example, at least a OT case where PALAT means clearly "make a person [distinct from you] escape". That is the same identical meaning of "make Barabbas free" addressed to Pilate.

You are irrationally against Bernard Dubourg, who was a Hebrew expert, as claimed by Nanine Charbonnel, academic scholar and author of this book, reviewed positively by Thomas Römer, an OT authority.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of: “PâLaT bar-Abbas” : “Free Barabbas!”

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:14 am

You don't read the passage. You just take a snippet out of context. The passage says in Hebrew that if God kills the enemy of the Psalmist his life with escape or be free. Just look even at the English translation
Rise up, LORD, confront them, bring them down; with your sword rescue me (my life) from the wicked.
What's God going to do with his sword? Is he going to kill the Psalmist? No he's going to kill the enemy of the Psalmist. That's going to cause his life to escape. The passage literally say 'escape my life' with your sword (by killing) his enemy. Put another way 'let me escape by killing my enemy with your sword.' How does this possibly apply to the gospel? How is a crowd shouting - in Syriac - 'release' or 'untie' Barabbas remotely related to this? You're just daft.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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