On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Charles Wilson
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Charles Wilson »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:10 am
Charles Wilson wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:54 am Before you multiply entities, at least look on the ground for other possibilities.
Excuse me, Charles, but I consider a total idiocy these your words in this thread. It is here where you betray yourself as a sincere - the more sincere, in my view - historicist of the forum (and I use the term as an insult, at least here).
I'm sorry that you feel that you must hurl a compliment as an insult here.
You love John the Baptist, you see him as the magical "hero" eclipsed deliberately by presumed evil conspirers, etc, etc.
False. JtB is a representative of the Mishmarot Priesthood and is of Bilgah. Here is where the "Historicist" epithet is a Badge of Honor. If there is "History" here then I believe we should try to tease out the "Actual, Real History" and see where that goes. I neither love nor hate John.
That is all bullshit. I cannot avoid the impression that you are “dirtying” this thread.
No. Metaphysical reasoning is always on a knife edge and it is easy to take what appears to be solid reasoning and go very astray:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0he-LZNzVg0
"Fortunately, I was able to interpret the signs correctly..."
Well,,,No General Ripper, you didn't. (BTW, one of the Great Scene in the History of Movie making)

The deal here, Giuseppe, is that I wish you well in your search for the Line of Reasoning that led to the Giant Mess of Early Christian Reasoning.

It's there but less available to the a priori reasoning that you apply, IMHO. Secret Alias and I do not always play well together in the sand box but I respect his work and reasoning even if it is fucked-up-beyond-all-repair, the stupid fuck :D . Hugs and kisses, SA :cheers:

Keep working, Giuseppe. You're OK.

CW
Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe »

Capharnaüm means:
a confused jumble : a place marked by a disorderly accumulation of objects

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capharnaum
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe »


Capernaum in French is used usually in French literature to signify chaos, to signify hell, disorder,” according to Lebanese filmmaker Nadine Labaki, director of this emotionally wrenching film

http://chickflix.net/2018/12/review-cap ... apharnaum/
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe »

The following reconstruction of Mcn is probably the origin of the tradition connecting the marcionite Jesus with a seditionist (becoming later Barabbas in the judaizing gospels):


Then the whole assembly rose and led him off to Pilate. And they began to accuse him, saying, “We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be Messiah, a king.
So Pilate asked Jesus, “Are you the Christ?”
“You have said so,” Jesus replied.
Then Pilate announced to the chief priests and the crowd, “I find no basis for a charge against this man.”
But they insisted, “He stirs up the people all over Judea by his teaching. He started in Galilee and has come all the way here.”.

Pilate called together the chief priests, the rulers and the people, and said to them, “You brought me this man as one who was inciting the people to rebellion. I have examined him in your presence and have found no basis for your charges against him. Therefore, I will punish him and then release him.”

But with loud shouts they insistently demanded that he be crucified, and their shouts prevailed. Then the death was nevertheless pronounced against Christ, as if he had been a murderer.

Note that, against Marcion, the his Jesus Son of Father was reduced really to a seditionist and a murderer (Jesus Barabbas), but he was released by Pilate. The true Jewish Christ was crucified in the his place.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe »

Judas possessed by the demiurge, not by Satan.

Therefore the Creator, seeing that the Good God was going to destroy his Law, plotted against Christ, and not knowing that the death of the Good was the salvation of men.
Then he entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus.

This reconstruction of the marcionite gospel is able to explain our actual versions:


Luke 22:1-2
22 Now the Festival of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching, 2 and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some way to get rid of Jesus, for they were afraid of the people

Luke 23:34
Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.


Luke 22:3-4
3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus.


John 13:27
27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.”



Why?
Because the our versions have the following contradictions:
1) they are unable to decide who was really the first to conspire against Jesus, if Judas or the sinedrites, or if Judas or Satan. Whereas in Mcn, the demiurge is the only actor moving the pawns.

2) they are unable to decide who, among Satan, the sinedrites or Judas, knew really what they were doing. Whereas in Mcn, the demiurge is the only actor who knew what Jesus was doing.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe »

I read that caper means "desolation" or "expiation" (the Sheol being probably a such place), whereas kafr means "village".

So "Capernaum" was taken wrongly for meaning "village" and identified with the Josephian Capernaum (really, only a spring of Galilee, not a village). Hence, only for the coincidence of having a "Capernaum" in Galilee, the Galilee was taken as the place where Jesus started the his preaching.

In Mcn the term Galilee was never found.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe »

Once chosen the Galilee as the place where a Capernaum had to be found - thanks to Josephus - (and where therefore Jesus had to descend directly from the heaven the first time, in opposition to the Earliest Gospel where "Capernaum" was the Sheol, per Heracleon and the meaning of "Caphar"/expiation/desolation),...


…, and given the fact that, before Pilate, Jesus had to be accused of sedition "starting from Galilee",


...then the Jesus ben Saphat of which Josephus talks in War (docet Frans Vermeiren), was used as midrashical source for the Gospel Jesus leader of a band of poor fishers.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe »


One day, Christ asked, "What is your name?" to a leader of demons who answered him:
"Legion" and begged him not to order him to go to the abyss.
Christ consented.


A simple episode to show the absolute goodness (goodism?) of the Christ. So the Judaizers had a motive for :
  • introduce the Gerasene man as a parody of Paul "the apostle of Marcion and of the heretics"
  • use the Zealot propaganda against the Romans/swine as midrashical source for the best glory of the Jewish Christ.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe »

Short Definition:
to cover (specifically with bitumen); figuratively, to expiate or condone, to placate or cancel

Detailed Definition:
to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch
(Qal) to coat or cover with pitch
(Piel)
to cover over, pacify, propitiate
to cover over, atone for sin, make atonement for
to cover over, atone for sin and persons by legal rites
(Pual)
to be covered over
to make atonement for
(Hithpael) to be covered

https://www.messie2vie.fr/bible/strongs ... age-5.html

Where the sins are expiated is the Sheol.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe »

If, in Marcion's Gospel, Jesus descended to Capernaum i.e. in Sheol (so Heracleon), then the following episode has to occur in the incipit of Mcn:

In addition to his blasphemy against God Himself, he advanced this also, truly speaking as with the mouth of the devil, and saying all things in direct opposition to the truth — that Cain, and those like him, and the Sodomites, and the Egyptians, and others like them, and, in fine, all the nations who walked in all sorts of abomination, were saved by the Lord, on His descending into Hades, and on their running unto Him, and that they welcomed Him into their kingdom. But the serpent which was in Marcion declared that Abel, and Enoch, and Noah, and those other righteous men who sprang from the patriarch Abraham, with all the prophets, and those who were pleasing to God, did not partake in salvation. For since these men, he says, knew that their God was constantly tempting them, so now they suspected that He was tempting them, and did not run to Jesus, or believe His announcement: and for this reason he declared that their souls remained in Hades.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103127.htm

Hence Jesus met John the Baptist there in the Sheol the first time.

We know how John addressed Jesus in the Sheol:

"Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?"

John recognized that Jesus was not the Son of the creator. Hence he denied him and he was left in the Sheol with all the Prophets of the demiurge.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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