On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:43 am

(Follow from the previous post)

Obviously the marcionite Jesus couldn't answer to John by quoting Isaiah, since he had still to go on the earth from the Sheol where he met a reluctant John the Baptist and all the Prophets of the demiurge.

But then John the Baptist was considered already dead when Jesus descended to Sheol (="Capernaum"). Marcion knew who was really John: Hyrcanus II.

The Judaizers, in their effort to make John a precursor of a Jewish Christ ON THE EARTH, had to invent a more recent John and not one who was already dead when Jesus descended to Capernaum. So they cloned John Hyrcanus II and invented "John the Baptist". Interpolating Josephus.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:27 am

I wonder if in Marcion's Gospel, the John figure remembers the descending of Odysseus in the Hades, where he met Achilles. Or think about Aeneas, who met Didon in the Hades. The pattern usually is that who descends in Hades meets a dead figure who does some prophecy about the descender. A prophecy about things that the descender will do in the immediate future, at his return on the earth.


Hence it was natural to think about a John met by the marcionite Jesus in the Hades as a prophet of things about Jesus himself. Only, the prophecy of John about Jesus is a sad admission of the his anti-demiurgical nature ("Are you who has to come, or we should expect another?").

The necessary step to make John a positive prophet of Jesus, is to make him a living figure on the earth the first time he met Jesus.

So John had to be made a contemporary of Jesus.

A new (false) John was invented, from the old (true) John: Hyrcanus II.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:03 am

It seems that one of the proto-catholic legends about Jesus descending to hell assumes that, before the arrival of Jesus in Hades, already John the Baptist was preaching the Christ in the Hades itself!

https://books.google.it/books?id=njMzDQ ... on&f=false

The marcionite influence on all these legends seems evident to me, insofar:


Jesus descends to Capernaum

but Heracleon says that Capernaum = Hades


so Jesus descends to Hades from heaven, in the incipit of Mcn.


Per Ireneus, the marcionite Jesus meets the OT Prophets and the Patriarchs in Hades

Luke puts John in prison when he heard about Jesus's miracles and he asked "are you who has to come?".

But the "prison" == Hades.

Therefore also John was in Hades when all the dead prophets met Jesus the first time.


CONCLUSION:

Marcion knew only a John who was already dead from long time when Jesus descended in the netherworld.

The best candidate for a John already dead when Jesus descended to "Capernaum"/Hades, is John Hyrcanus II.

THerefore: the Judaizers invented the John the Baptist contemporary of Pilate and Herod Antipas. Interpolating Josephus.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:18 am

The my explanation has the merit to explain:
  • The strange claim of Tertullian:

    Unde autem et Ioannes venit in medium? Subito Christus, subito et Ioannes.
    Whence, too, does John come upon the scene? Christ, suddenly; and just as suddenly, John!

    John appears in Hades just when Jesus descended to "Capernaum"=Hades.
  • John is effectively described as already dead through all Mcn. In the magistral analysis of Stuart:

    John Already Dead

    Why is it that John never appears in Marcion’s gospel? And why is it we only see his disciples? One very real possibility is that John is already left the scene when Jesus begins his mission. He is definitely dead before the middle of the Gospel, as the story of Herod’s interest in Luke 9:7-9 tells us this plainly.
    Now Herod [the tetrarch] heard of all that was done, and he was perplexed, because it was said by some that John had been raised from the dead, by some that Eli'jah had appeared, and by others that one of the old prophets had risen. Herod said, "John I beheaded; but who is this about whom I hear such things?" [3]
    Herod’s statement differs slightly from Matthew and Mark, where he declares that Jesus must be John the Baptist raised from the dead. But in all accounts John is dead, and Herod knows of Jesus only after John. And he compares, as others do, Jesus to John, and on the same general terms. But in Marcion, Herod does not know who Jesus is, underscoring the concept of an alien God’s Christ, as opposed to the one Herod knows for John.

    (my bold)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:32 am

Obviously, if:

the Teacher of Righteousness = Hyrcanus II = the marcionite John

(Note that Greg Doudna has already detected that JtB is Hyrcanus II and the qumranic Teacher)


...then the Judaizers had a real reason to invent a contemporary John who was able to meet Jesus on this earth and not in Hades.

For a very strange irony of history, we can really claim that Jesus was able to rise a dead person in a new form: not Lazarus, but John! :lol:
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:12 pm

The crowd of souls saved by the marcionite Jesus from Hades becomes the crowd baptized by John on earth.

John in Mark doesn't recognize Jesus not even during the Baptism.

The Judaizer "Mark" (author) was embarrassed by a John being surprised by a so ALIEN Jesus!

Think about this scene and imagine it occurring in the Sheol: before John the Baptist there are only ordinary human-too-human souls of dead people in the Hades.

Image

But a particular person before him is surprisingly living in the Hades (!) even being without a body.

It is evident why "Mark" had to eclipse entirely Jesus before John, whereas "Matthew" has Jesus confirming this eclipse pace John's reluctance to eclipse really him. In Mcn Jesus was not eclipsed at all in the Hades.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:27 pm

Note that in the Fourth Gospel John the Baptist recognizes the ALIEN nature of Jesus but he approves it. What I am saying is that in Mcn, when Jesus descended to Hades (="Capernaum"), John the Baptist recognizes the ALIEN nature of Jesus but he is reluctant to accept the Good God of which Jesus is Son.
Therefore there is embarrassment in Mark, in Matthew and in John about the original Baptist episode in Mcn: recognition + disapproval of an Alien Christ. In the Hades.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:01 am

Once realized that John was in the Hades when Jesus met him the first time, the incipit of Mcn is therefore the following:

The fifteenth day of the month of Tybi,

Christ, descended from Heaven, appeared at “Capernaum” [Place of Expiation = Sheol].


Having taken the appearance of a man, he seemed 30 years old.


Cain and those who are like him, the sodomites, the Egyptians, and
others, all those who were guilty of indignities, came to him

and Christ saved them.


All were struck by his teaching
because his word had authority

But a demon cried to him:
- "What do you have to do with us, Jesus? You came
to lose us?
- I know who you are: the Holy of God. "

- Christ rebuked him:
"Go behind me, Satan"

And John (Hyrcanus II) and all the prophets and the patriarchs asked:
""Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?"

And Christ left them in the Hades of the evil Demiurge.

Ascended on the earth, Christ saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen...

Please note how the Earliest Gospel is full of myth and only partially an euhemerization of Jesus…

ADDENDA: Note how the demon called the Christ: "Jesus", i.e. "YHWH-who-saves". The reproach of Christ is equivalent not only to a rejection of the role of the Jewish Christ, but also to a rejection of the name itself, “Joshua”. It is not the demiurge that saves.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:18 am

Ephrem the Syrian reveals, for who has followed my explanation above, why Jesus preached inside a synagogue (and not out of it) in the corrupted (judaized) version of the incipit of Mcn:

He had but just come into Galilee: nor had he [even on the orthodox shewing] begun to preach outside the synagogue, [in which case the custom of preaching would have been established] but he began in the synagogue, (and we must either admit) as their worship requires, that he preached to them concerning their God, [the creator of the world] or else he would have had to preach outside the synagogues.

https://archive.org/stream/cu3192402933 ... 2_djvu.txt

Think about this: what more than Sheol (="Capernaum") is exclusive property of the demiurge, the god of the Jews?

Hence the Sheol becomes the “synagogue” in the Judaizing incipit of Luke.

Ephrem continues:

[But if he preached about their God to them then this must have been what provoked their anger; nothing had passed between them before], and his visit to Bethsaida [so, according to Marcion, and not Nazareth] was only marked on their side by the suggestion that the physician should heal himself. This is not sufficient to explain their anger and their desire to throw him from the rock. [We must, therefore, allow that he had said things to them about their God, which provoked them, and this must have been the first occasion upon which such things were said.]

Hence, after the his descent to Sheol (="Capernaum"), the marcionite Jesus ascended the first time on this earth, in Bethsaida.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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