On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Martin Klatt
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Martin Klatt » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:26 am

Last edited by Martin Klatt on Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
What I have written, I have written........., but it ain't necessarily so.

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:50 am

Peter was sleeping really during the original Crucifixion/Ascension, when Jesus had to meet the original 2 robbers, Elijah and Moses.

As you know already, I am strongly against anyone who says that between Jesus Christ and Jesus Barabbas there is an implicit alliance, reflection of an alliance between two Powers in Heaven et similia bullshit. Who describes Barabbas as a robber can't love who is connected someway with Bar-Abbas (the "Son of Father" never called Christ).

By invoking YHWH as Abbas, the claim is made against his deniers that YHWH and only him is the supreme god. But the supreme god couldn't be known, just as his true son, and therefore Bar-Abbas, not Jesus called Christ, is the true Son of an unknown Father.

Peter was sleeping so he reported the correct prayer made by the wrong guy.

But what interests me now is, as I have already explained, the way by which Jesus in the Sheol was risen: by the baptism, there in Sheol, by John the Baptist, who therefore was already dead to be found there in Sheol. Before Jesus's "corpse" descended there.

Hence the original Joseph of Arimathea was the soul of John the Baptist in Sheol, who put the corpse of Jesus in the waters of life, to make him risen after 3 days (=the original "Baptism").

Just as Joseph of Arimathea was an evil sinedrite, so John the Baptist was in Sheol as all the others OT prophets slaves of demiurge.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:00 pm

Joseph of Arimathea is therefore a hybrid figure, composed by the fusion of the original burier of Jesus in Sheol - John the Baptist - and Josephus who saved the his friend in the real History. The Josephus was used to eclipse the John.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:08 pm

Note the difference beteeen Joseph of Arimathea and John the Baptist.

In the Earliest Gospel, John in Sheol finds the corpse of Jesus (just arrived there after the crucifixion in outer space), baptizes him and makes him risen.

In Mark, Joseph buries Jesus's corpse but doesn't make him risen.

Why this difference?

Because after the "baptism"/resurrection, in the Earliest Gospel the risen Jesus, being still in Sheol, starts to preach in Sheol. John fears the message of Jesus, because he realizes that Jesus is not sent by the demiurge adored by John and the OT prophets. The fear of John before the Risen Jesus in Sheol will become the fear of the women in Mark's final, before the news about the Risen Jesus.

Hence the women had to have fear of the Risen, not Joseph of Arimathea aka John the Baptist.

Otherwise the readers would realized that Joseph served to replace John the Baptist as the burier of Jesus's corpse and the person who was frightened by Jesus's true identity.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:19 pm

This is the reason why Mark is embarrassed by any scenario where John realizes the true identity of Jesus: in the Earliest Gospel, a John who realizes who is really Jesus is a John who fears and rejects Jesus, as Son of an alien Father (not the god of Jews).

Just as the women in Mark 16:8.

Just as Joseph of Arimathea, if only he had met the Risen Jesus!
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:35 pm

Is there a curious irony about a hypothetical Joseph of Arimathea seeing the Risen Jesus, and being killed by the vision, out of the fear for the monster he sees, the Son of an alien Father who is enemy of YHWH? Josephus was a betrayer of the Jews, in the real History. He will do the end of all the betrayers: he will die violently. "And Herod arrested John" means: YHWH punished John the Baptist in Sheol.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:48 pm

Hence a John punished by the demiurge by making him remain in Sheol after the John's rejection of the message of the Risen Jesus in Sheol, is the best candidate to be blocked in Sheol by the Archont Gate-Keeper Pylatis, the same Archon who makes the Risen Jesus pass freely to heaven with the souls of good people: hence the paradox is that the original victim of the demon Pylatis/"Pilate", if there was one, was just John, not Jesus.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:05 pm

Despite of all this hostility against him, John in the Earliest Gospel has a particular merit: he knew, he saw the Risen Jesus in the his true identity (being the person who put the Jesus's corpse in the water of life). John is therefore the prototype of the Gnostic par excellence, even only in virtue of this knowledge of the Jesus without approval of him.

In virtue of this his being "the one who KNOWS", John will be hated and co-opted by both the author of the Earliest Gospel and by the our Mark.

And I John saw these things, and heard them.

(Revelation 22:8)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:41 pm

John was found in Sheol in the Earliest Gospel, because Sheol (="Capernaum") was the first destination of Jesus in Marcion while the Herod's prison (just as, in the Judaizing parody, the Barabbas's prison) allegorizes the Sheol. So too the "wilderness". But so also the island of Patmos allegorizes Sheol in Revelation 1:9:

9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

But "John son of Zebedee" was a catholic interpolation in Revelation. So also the exile in Patmos allegorizes the prison in Sheol. Someway, the link John the Baptist/Sheol was preserved even in the mind of the Catholic interpolator of Revelation.

But the link John/Sheol was an insult addressed against John, the original author of the oldest nucleus of Revelation, i.e. Revelation 12, a text that, if only all the pauline epistles were false, would be the oldest text of all the Christianity.

The Earliest Gospel was partially written against that John, insofar John the Baptist was found in Sheol and it is an insult, similar to the insult against the OT prophets, found themselves in Sheol when Jesus descended there.

Hence, while I can easily explain the link John/Sheol (converted and mitigated later by the Judaizers as a link John/wilderness), the last enigma is the reason why John "baptized" Jesus in the water of life, i.e. he makes him risen in Sheol. "John" means "YHWH gives grace", but the original "grace" was given to Jesus the Son of Father ("Bar-Abbas").

ADDENDA
Hence, the same ambivalence found in the our gospels about John the Baptist, was found in the Earliest Gospel: the same guy is found in Sheol as an insult, but he is also made the guy who makes Jesus risen, and this is a merit.

Why did the Gnostics hate and love John? I can explain easily the hostility (the Gnostics hated the Jewish book of Revelation) but what is more difficult to be explained is the Gnostic sympathy for a mere failed apocalypticist named John.

Hence, the suspicion is raised about the role held by John before he was identified with the Book of Revelation.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:10 am

In a mandean text an evil Jesus is described as who deceived the good John the Baptist:
‘When John lived in Jerusalem in those days and took the river Jordan and baptized, Jesus came in devotion and received the baptism by John and becomes wise by the wisdom of John. But then he twisted the meaning of John’s messages and changed baptism

My thesis is that the Mandeans are not Gnostics. Even if they hated YHWH, they are Judaizers, just as both the proto-catholics and the ebionites/nazarenes are mere judaizers. I am not inclined at all to consider John the Baptist a Gnostic thing. He is too much an adorer of YHWH already in the name to gnosticize someway him.

What the Mandean text says basically is an ancient tradition coming back to the Earliest Gospel, only, one interpreted according to completely judaizing lens:
  • John baptized souls in Sheol. He is a Jewish Χάρων, a kind of psychopomp, the ferryman of Hades.
  • Jesus comes. John considers him as a mere soul in Sheol. John baptizes him.
  • Unexpectdly for John, Jesus is transformed by his baptism of death (="baptism of water") and he rises in Sheol. Now he reveals his true nature.
  • John realizes that he has been just deceived by Jesus
.

The same story of Mcn, was read by Mandeans on the side of John against Jesus.


The Second Treatise of the Great Seth is explicit in the total condemnation of John the Baptist as merely one of the OT prophets:

I have not sinned. The 12 prophets were laughingstocks, since they have come forth as imitations of the true prophets. They came into being as counterfeits through the Hebdomad, as if he had become stronger than I and my brothers. But we are innocent with respect to him, since we have not sinned. Moses, a faithful servant, was a laughingstock, having been named "the Friend," since they perversely bore witness concerning him who never knew me. Neither he nor those before him, from Adam to Moses and John the Baptist, none of them knew me nor my brothers.

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/2seth.html

Hence: who adores YHWH and/or follows John the Baptist, is a Judaizer.

Also Apollos, the original "Mark", was a Judaizer.

ADDENDA:

Who knew "only the baptism of John" were really enemies of the Gnostics. The miracle happened that, thanks to Apollos (="Mark") they were able to see that the Jesus cult could be successfully judaized, i.e. Jesus could be accepted now insofar son of YHWH and not of an alien god. □
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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