On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:16 am

Nasruddin wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:00 am
Richard Carrier is simplifying the story of Innana to force a point. She was not 'nailed up', but was hung from a hook.
It is a crucifixion in Sheol. Period. And this thread is where you can discuss that precise point.
Nasruddin wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:00 am
And there were no 'her minions' but two beings (gala-tura and kur-jara) created by the god Enki and sent by nim to the Underworld with express instructions to rescue Innana.
Dr. Carrier mean "her minions" as her servants/allies. I note that at least one of them has an androgyne nature. Just as Hermes, who may be the original John the Baptist.

in the Osiris Myth, the role of John the Baptist is assumed by the goddess Isis, who reconstructs the body of Osiris by collecting his disiepta membra from the waters.

My point is that, in all these myths, there is not only the already known pattern of the god dying and rising (a FACT denied only by apologists à la GakuseiDon), but also the resurrection of the god worked by a particular helper.

In the case of Osiris, the helper is Isis.

In the case of Innana, you and Carrier have mentioned the two creatures.

In the case of Jesus, the helper sent to make him risen, is John the Baptist.

While for me the analogy is not a coincidence (I mean: in the Earliest Gospel, John was introduced the first time as baptizer/burier of Jesus's corpse in Sheol, the role now held by Joseph of Arimathea), where I am always open to suggestions of any kind, is about the nature of John: was he evil or good ? Put otherwise:

Did he immerse the corpse of Jesus in the waters of death? Or in the waters of life ?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Nasruddin
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Nasruddin » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:43 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:16 am
Nasruddin wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:00 am
Richard Carrier is simplifying the story of Innana to force a point. She was not 'nailed up', but was hung from a hook.
It is a crucifixion in Sheol. Period. And this thread is where you can discuss that precise point.
You are the one who brought the reference into this thread. If this is not the place to comment on it, then the fault is yours.

Nasruddin
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Nasruddin » Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:06 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:16 am
Nasruddin wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:00 am
And there were no 'her minions' but two beings (gala-tura and kur-jara) created by the god Enki and sent by nim to the Underworld with express instructions to rescue Innana.
Dr. Carrier mean "her minions" as her servants/allies. I note that at least one of them has an androgyne nature. Just as Hermes, who may be the original John the Baptist.
No. Richard Carrier has used the word in other works, and he uses it to mean servants(with a mild cynicism that they are sycophantic and dumb. The two beings that Enki sent were not Inanna's servants, nor were they sycophantic or dumb. They were created by and ordered by Enki.

Nasruddin
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Nasruddin » Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:14 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:16 am
While for me the analogy is not a coincidence (I mean: in the Earliest Gospel, John was introduced the first time as baptizer/burier of Jesus's corpse in Sheol, the role now held by Joseph of Arimathea), where I am always open to suggestions of any kind, is about the nature of John: was he evil or good ? Put otherwise:

Did he immerse the corpse of Jesus in the waters of death? Or in the waters of life ?
If John the Baptist is just repeating the helper motif to the resurrected god, then you have the answer. If his baptism led to the resurrection, and assuming the resurrection was good, then the baptism was good and so was John's role.

If you can find an example of a god being unintentionally brought back from the Underworld, then I would be interested to hear more.

A resurrection in myth usually required a substitute - Inanna was replaced by Dumuzid who was himself periodically replaced by his sister, Theseus was released from Hades but Iphicles had to stay, King Admetos could only return from the dead once Alcetis had taken his place. Who took the place of Jesus?

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:00 pm

Nasruddin wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:06 pm
The two beings that Enki sent were not Inanna's servants, nor were they sycophantic or dumb. They were created by and ordered by Enki.
insofar they helped Innana to rise (and not Enki), they were her servants.

It seems clearly that you want to insult Dr. Carrier here, without reason apart your probable hostility against mythicists as him.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:04 pm

Nasruddin wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:14 pm
Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:16 am
While for me the analogy is not a coincidence (I mean: in the Earliest Gospel, John was introduced the first time as baptizer/burier of Jesus's corpse in Sheol, the role now held by Joseph of Arimathea), where I am always open to suggestions of any kind, is about the nature of John: was he evil or good ? Put otherwise:

Did he immerse the corpse of Jesus in the waters of death? Or in the waters of life ?
If John the Baptist is just repeating the helper motif to the resurrected god, then you have the answer. If his baptism led to the resurrection, and assuming the resurrection was good, then the baptism was good and so was John's role.

If you can find an example of a god being unintentionally brought back from the Underworld, then I would be interested to hear more.

A resurrection in myth usually required a substitute - Inanna was replaced by Dumuzid who was himself periodically replaced by his sister, Theseus was released from Hades but Iphicles had to stay, King Admetos could only return from the dead once Alcetis had taken his place. Who took the place of Jesus?
good points.

About:
If his baptism led to the resurrection, and assuming the resurrection was good, then the baptism was good and so was John's role.
...the question arises: can his baptism be considered good when it was given even to other people at Jordan (=other souls in Sheol) without apparently a good effect (since even in Mark the Spirit didn't descend on these people/souls) on them, differently from Jesus?

There are reasons to meditate further on it, I think.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:03 pm

Cyrill of Jerusalem confirms what was in the incipit of the Earliest Gospel, since he agrees perfectly with the Marcionite version of the descent to Sheol.

19. Death was struck with dismay on beholding a new visitant descend into Hades, not bound by the chains of that place. Why, O porters of Hades, were you scared at sight of Him? What was the unwonted fear that possessed you? Death fled, and his flight betrayed his cowardice. The holy prophets ran unto Him, and Moses the Lawgiver, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob; David also, and Samuel, and Esaias, and John the Baptist, who bore witness when he asked, Are You He that should come, or look we for another Matthew 11:3? All the Just were ransomed, whom death had swallowed; for it behooved the King whom they had proclaimed, to become the redeemer of His noble heralds. Then each of the Just said, O death, where is your victory? O grave, where is your sting ? For the Conqueror has redeemed us.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310114.htm

Hence, when the John Baptist was in prison and said the famous question:

Are You He that should come, or look we for another?

...he was not in an earthly prison at all: he was in Sheol.

Luke and Matthew are particularly false when they report that the question and answer episode happened on the earth. In particular, what sounds more false than anything is the quote of Isaiah in the answer of Jesus.

Marcion tells us what happened after that dramatic question:

“In addition to his blasphemy against God Himself, he advanced this also, truly speaking as with the mouth of the devil, and saying all things in direct opposition to the truth—that Cain, and those like him, and the Sodomites, and the Egyptians, and others like them, and, in fine, all the nations who walked in all sorts of abomination, were saved by the Lord, on His descending into Hades, and on their running unto Him, and that they welcomed Him into their kingdom.”
But the serpent which was in Marcion declared that Abel, and Enoch, and Noah, and those other righteous men who sprang from the patriarch Abraham, with all the prophets, and those who were pleasing to God, did not partake in salvation. For since these men, he says, knew that their God was constantly tempting them, so now they suspected that He was tempting them, and did not run to Jesus, or believe His announcement: and for this reason he declared that their souls remained in Hades.

(Irenaeus, From Book I, chap. 27,Against Heresies)

Hence, John the Baptist is made an evil character, in the Earliest Gospel.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Nasruddin
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Nasruddin » Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:19 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:00 pm
Nasruddin wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:06 pm
The two beings that Enki sent were not Inanna's servants, nor were they sycophantic or dumb. They were created by and ordered by Enki.
insofar they helped Innana to rise (and not Enki), they were her servants.

It seems clearly that you want to insult Dr. Carrier here, without reason apart your probable hostility against mythicists as him.
I am sure Carrier would agree with me that clarification is neither an insult nor a display of hostility. Carrier portrays the myth of Inanna in a slightly inaccurate manner, which you have picked up and taken to be the actual story. I am just saving you the trouble of getting the wrong interpretation.

Nasruddin
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Nasruddin » Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:53 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:04 pm
Nasruddin wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:14 pm
Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:16 am
While for me the analogy is not a coincidence (I mean: in the Earliest Gospel, John was introduced the first time as baptizer/burier of Jesus's corpse in Sheol, the role now held by Joseph of Arimathea), where I am always open to suggestions of any kind, is about the nature of John: was he evil or good ? Put otherwise:

Did he immerse the corpse of Jesus in the waters of death? Or in the waters of life ?
If John the Baptist is just repeating the helper motif to the resurrected god, then you have the answer. If his baptism led to the resurrection, and assuming the resurrection was good, then the baptism was good and so was John's role.

If you can find an example of a god being unintentionally brought back from the Underworld, then I would be interested to hear more.

A resurrection in myth usually required a substitute - Inanna was replaced by Dumuzid who was himself periodically replaced by his sister, Theseus was released from Hades but Iphicles had to stay, King Admetos could only return from the dead once Alcetis had taken his place. Who took the place of Jesus?
good points.

About:
If his baptism led to the resurrection, and assuming the resurrection was good, then the baptism was good and so was John's role.
...the question arises: can his baptism be considered good when it was given even to other people at Jordan (=other souls in Sheol) without apparently a good effect (since even in Mark the Spirit didn't descend on these people/souls) on them, differently from Jesus?

There are reasons to meditate further on it, I think.
As I have pointed out, Jesus was not baptised by water in the Gospel of John. He was not baptised by John the Baptist. He was baptised by the Spirit and would in his turn baptise by the Spirit. As John reports -
John 1:33
"...he who sent me to baptize with water, he said to me, On whomsoever thou mayst see the Spirit coming down, and remaining on him, this is he who is baptizing with the Holy Spirit"

But in the Gospels many of Jesus' disciples - those who followed him, believed in him and were promised salvation by him - had received John's water baptism. It could be seen in your scenario that the water baptism was a prerequisite to following Jesus out of Sheol. Jesus himself did not need John's baptism - but he did need the Spirit baptism. However those who didn't receive John's baptism - the Pharisees who only sent investigators - are continual disbelievers and did not follow him. Therefore John's baptism was good. But John himself was not baptised, nor those who lived before him. Maybe here is the explanation why the Biblical patriarchs could not follow Jesus out of Sheol.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;

Jesus could only baptise by the Spirit. John and his disciples could only baptise by water. This is why it says in John 3:22 & 4:2 -
After these things came Jesus and his disciples to the land of Judea, and there he did tarry with them, and was baptizing...though Jesus himself was not baptizing, but it was his disciples."

Jesus could not baptise with water, just as his disciples could not baptise with Spirit. Water is physical, whereas the Spirit is like the wind. Baptism by Spirit is through the breath -
John 20:22 "and this having said, he breathed on them, and saith to them, `Receive the Holy Spirit;"

Giuseppe
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Re: On the link between Capernaum and John the Baptist

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:25 am

Nasruddin wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:53 am
But in the Gospels many of Jesus' disciples - those who followed him, believed in him and were promised salvation by him - had received John's water baptism. It could be seen in your scenario that the water baptism was a prerequisite to following Jesus out of Sheol. Jesus himself did not need John's baptism - but he did need the Spirit baptism. However those who didn't receive John's baptism - the Pharisees who only sent investigators - are continual disbelievers and did not follow him. Therefore John's baptism was good. But John himself was not baptised, nor those who lived before him. Maybe here is the explanation why the Biblical patriarchs could not follow Jesus out of Sheol.
we know that Marcion's Jesus, after the John's question from the prison (on earth, hence in a late marcionite version), had invited his disciples to go to see John "in the wilderness". I don't know if it is an invitation. Jesus is assuming that his hearers had already met John "in the wilderness". Translated for my scenario: the hearers had already met John in Sheol since they were souls imprisoned in Sheol. The inferior in the kingdom of heaven will be greater than John for the only reason that the follower of Jesus will be risen: he/she will abandon the Sheol, where, at contrary, John will be left.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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