How John Wrote the Book of Revelation Chapter 1

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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Re: How John Wrote the Book of Revelation Chapter 1

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:09 am

Interesting, thanks. You argue that 13:8 is based on 2:8 :
“To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Do you think that:
"The First and the Last, who died and came to life again
" is to be meant as saying:

Jesus is the First (implicit: Man or Entity) to be killed and to be risen, so he was killed and was risen even before the Fall of Adam. In other terms, he was killed "from the foundation of the world" (just as the Book of Life was written also from that time), as it is possible to interpret 13:8 per Couchoud. Read here at least only the first post of this thread:
viewtopic.php?t=3419#p74003
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

klewis
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Re: How John Wrote the Book of Revelation Chapter 1

Post by klewis » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:30 am

Smyrna, means Myrrh, and this is one instance of where John connected it with Jesus' burial. Each of the seven churches have names that John does word plays with, Thyatira (means daughter, and Jesus is the son of God), Pergamum means parchment, and their names will be written in stone. Laodica means righteous, but they are not. Those type of word plays.

Remember when I told you about there are other parallels with the two passages here is how the first and the last got into Smyrna:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qknqWt ... sp=sharing

Thanks for the questions.

Charles Wilson
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Re: How John Wrote the Book of Revelation Chapter 1

Post by Charles Wilson » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:43 am

Klewis --

You have some good insights. That is, where you agree with me, I think you are correct :cheers:
klewis wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:18 am
First, the book of Revelation was written after 70 CE... decades after the destruction of Jerusalem while depicting its writing prior to its destruction (see Rev 10:1-11).
I believe you are correct here. The problem is in the Source Texts and the rewrite in the Domitian and early Post-Domitian Court. See below.
The entry of the beast narratives come from Daniel, and was the last text added to Revelation.
You may be correct here and the reason appears to be that the Original is describing Jannaeus and his fight against Demetrius Eucerus, a Greek General. I believe that Demetrius sacrificed on the Altar at Gerizim, in parallel to descriptions in Daniel (Let the reader note this.).
The person, that John is describing as the beast is Domitian.
Very, very good!
Domitian is the only one that would fit that context. Vespasian when he became emperor, he made his two sons co-emperors. When he died, Titus became emperor for a little while, 2 years, and then Domitian became emperor again.
Right. On. Target.
Now to the question that you are asking. Lots of passages that are claimed as history in Revelation is actually quotations from the Hebrew Scriptures.
Or from materials that found their way to Rome after the destruction of the Temple. Rewrites of Jannaeus and the Hasmoneans and Mishmarot.
However, it is my belief that John was predicting the end of the world at 105 CE and the 10 days of being imprisoned was 10 years from 96 CE to 105 CE.
We're not too far off. The Roman part comes after the death of Domitian AND after the death of Verginius Rufus. Pliny the Y and Tacitus spoke at his funeral and they had a hand in the creation of, for example, the Empty Tomb [written around the "Empty Tomb" stories of Otho dying at Brixellum and Verginius Rufus leaving out the back door as he is about to be proclaimed Emperor by his troops - Edit]. I have Mark at about 110 and the organization of the NT falls into place at about this time. The rewrite of the Jannaeus/Hasmonean Story would be appropriate for these few years.
I will have to get back on the source for 11:8.
I have this as the deaths of Aristobulus 2 and his son Alexander:

Josephus, Ant..., 14, 7, 4:

"But some time afterward Cesar, when he had taken Rome, and after Pompey and the senate were fled beyond the Ionian Sea, freed Aristobulus from his bonds, and resolved to send him into Syria, and delivered two legions to him, that he might set matters right, as being a potent man in that country. But Aristobulus had no enjoyment of what he hoped for from the power that was given him by Cesar; for those of Pompey's party prevented it, and destroyed him by poison; and those of Caesar's party buried him. His dead body also lay, for a good while, embalmed in honey, till Antony afterward sent it to Judea, and caused him to be buried in the royal sepulcher. But Scipio, upon Pompey's sending to him to slay Alexander, the son of Aristobulus, because the young man was accused of what offenses he had been guilty of at first against the Romans, cut off his head; and thus did he die at Antioch..."

Note the odd wording here, that Ari was buried by those of Caesar's party and yet his body also lay embalmed in honey. Curious.
Ari is preserved in honey to provide the main Motif for the Story
Sorry, I hope this was at least a good start.
No apology needed!

Best,

CW
Last edited by Charles Wilson on Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

klewis
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Re: How John Wrote the Book of Revelation Chapter 1

Post by klewis » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:54 am

Let me throw another thing into the mix that is different from every commentator on the writing of Revelation. The passages about the death and Resurrection of the beast was the death of Domitian. So John has a big problem, what happens if the main actor of your movie dies before you finish it. John could have started over, or he could just rush it out to publication.

In my book, I take the latter, and that is why the Greek is fantastic in certain places and poor in many more places. So I surmised that the poor writing is the result of parallel formation and the final stages would be polishing the work up. I provided some evidence as to this, but the best is the use of the Greek word KAI ("and" in English). In Revelation, John wrote "KAI" and then a clause for every statement. If you pick up a Greek NT look at the beginning of each verse. The first chapter, verses don't start with KAIs that often, second chapter the same. As you go further, only the topic beginnings don't start with KAIs. I concluded that John's Greek was very good, but the way he wrote requires extensive polishing work and he was just out of time.

klewis
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Re: How John Wrote the Book of Revelation Chapter 1

Post by klewis » Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:11 am

Charles Wilson,

The honey motif comes from Ezekiel 2:8 - 3:3 and has an interesting story behind it. The illustration below is what I call an Author's Notation which is a way for him to identity texts that have been split apart. John will use a repeating phrase at both ends of the text being split apart which you can see in the link below.
How the Mighty Angel got into Revelation is a little longer than I have time. How it became the Mighty Angel is a tried and true practice of making Synonym of the angel Seriphim in Isaiah 6.

Also, note in the illustration of the Revelation 18 portion of the Mighty Angel. Note how the Jeremiah passage is added and not that the scroll text of Jeremiah was deleted or not moved. What it does show is how the mill stone got into the passage and the moving of the text, John had to remove the scroll from it. It would not look good after being eaten and digested at that point.

klewis
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Re: How John Wrote the Book of Revelation Chapter 1

Post by klewis » Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:36 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:09 am
Interesting, thanks. You argue that 13:8 is based on 2:8 :
“To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Do you think that:
"The First and the Last, who died and came to life again
" is to be meant as saying:

Jesus is the First (implicit: Man or Entity) to be killed and to be risen, so he was killed and was risen even before the Fall of Adam. In other terms, he was killed "from the foundation of the world" (just as the Book of Life was written also from that time), as it is possible to interpret 13:8 per Couchoud. Read here at least only the first post of this thread:
viewtopic.php?t=3419#p74003
The first and the last statement is a mystery to me. So I cannot offer any help on this one. If I was a scholar of the first degree, my comment would be that "we" (scholars) don't know, but I will just say, I am ignorant on this one.

Concerning the big book, there is not one way that the book of life got into the book of Revelation and they are from the Hebrew scriptures. So I will do my best to show the logical order in which they came into Revelation. Please note that this is not the whole story, just the order.
Also, the question you asked about Revelation 13:8. There is a parallel between Revelation 5 and Revelation 13 that was finalized in the Daniel Draft.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gKX4UP ... sp=sharing

There are many more parallels, if you are interested, I can provide them. This one will give you a snap shot of what was going through John's head when he wrote it.

Bernard Muller
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Re: How John Wrote the Book of Revelation Chapter 1

Post by Bernard Muller » Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:58 pm

to Giuseppe,
ok, but basing on the your conclusions about how the book was written etc, what do you think about the question of historicity in Revelation, particularly about 11:8 and about 13:8 ?
About Rev 11:8:
RSV translation (which makes sense):
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.

Here the Lamb is not slain before the foundation of the world, but the names had been written in the book of life at that very early time.
The KJV follows the Greek more closely but is misleading:
And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;
The ancient Greek has no punctuation. So with a comma between "slain" and the "foundation", we are similar to the RSV translation.
Furthermore "Lamb slain" is better translated as "Lamb who has been slain", as in the NASB translation.

About Rev 11:8:
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified
According to the overall context (especially Ch. 16,17 & 18. See 17:9 & 17:18 in particular: the woman is the goddess of Rome, Roma), the author meant Rome for the big city (but I think klewis thinks it is Jerusalem).
"Archaeologists have discovered the Coin (or Medallion) of Vespasian that exhibits a picture of the goddess Roma as a woman seated on seven hills." (Kenneth L. Gentry, Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation, p. 149).
Here it is (coin dated 71C.E.): Image

For details, see http://www.icollector.com/Roman-Empire- ... g_i9258028

So "our Lord crucified" is figurative as God being inflicted pain because of the killing of Jews and the destruction of Jerusalem & its temple in 70 CE, which is what a Jewish Christian could not have written because it is Jesus who is crucified, in Jerusalem.

As for Jesus having been human:
5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
and
22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

klewis
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Re: How John Wrote the Book of Revelation Chapter 1

Post by klewis » Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:20 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:58 pm
to Giuseppe,
According to the overall context (especially Ch. 16,17 & 18. See 17:9 & 17:18 in particular: the woman is the goddess of Rome, Roma), the author meant Rome for the big city (but I think klewis thinks it is Jerusalem).
It is Jerusalem and here is why:
In the first draft, John selected Ezekiel 5 as its source material which gave a timeline as to the length of the siege of Jerusalem by the Babylonians. John just changed the numbers to reflect how long it took for the Roman siege of Jerusalem (3 1/2 years):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1P0AGZa ... sp=sharing

In the second draft, John interlaced the entire text of Revelation chapter 11 and 12 with Zechariah chapter 2 to 4. Note the entire context of Zechariah has to do with the rebuilding of Jerusalem.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WpWPIk ... sp=sharing

Now for Internal Context:

The city where they crucified our Lord (Rev 11:8)
The two prophets (Jesus and Zerubbabel) in Zechariah 4 is depicted as Jesus. They died, 3.5 days they were raised and take to heaven. As a result the kingdom of the world became the kingdom of God (Rev 11:15). Sounds like Jesus to me.

Chapter 12 is part of the embedded chiasmus with Zechariah so it too would be considered lump together. The imagery for Revelation 12 is derived from Isaiah.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/10AIWo0 ... sp=sharing

You also in Revelation 12:10 have the same wording found in Rev 11:15 where the son is taken to heaven and now the kingdom of the world is the kingdom of God.

There is more to the story but this will at least let you see the underlying text that formed the book of Revelation.

Revelation 17 & 18 are connected to Revelation 12 via parallel but are Rome, at least in the final draft of Revelation.

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rakovsky
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Re: How John Wrote the Book of Revelation Chapter 1

Post by rakovsky » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:09 am

I respect the careful research that you put into this. Robert Price wrote, as quoted earlier:
All careful readers know that Revelation is not simply an eyewitness account of a series of mind-blasting visions.
How can one prove definitively that this text was solely like a Christmas Carol, a carefully thought out and composed allegory of visions, and not an expansion of ideas that came in a dream-state, hallucination or trance like Crazy Horse's Dreams on his vision quest or shamanic vision stories?

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com

Charles Wilson
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Re: How John Wrote the Book of Revelation Chapter 1

Post by Charles Wilson » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:22 am

klewis wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:11 am
The honey motif comes from Ezekiel 2:8 - 3:3 and has an interesting story behind it
I would be most interested in reading of this "interesting story".

Josephus, Ant..., 14, 7, 4:

"...Aristobulus had no enjoyment of what he hoped for from the power that was given him by Cesar; for those of Pompey's party prevented it, and destroyed him by poison; and those of Caesar's party buried him. His dead body also lay, for a good while, embalmed in honey, till Antony afterward sent it to Judea, and caused him to be buried in the royal sepulcher..."

In a number of places, Josephus tells a tale that comes up short in the Details Department. He promises all of the story - "Pinkie Promise!" - but won't tell you who performs the sacrifices in the Temple during the pivotal Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE.

So it is here. "Members of Pompey's party..." poison Aristobulus 2. Whoa!!! When did Pompey use poison to achieve political ends? Well...after Mithridates poisoned Pompey's troops with Rhdodendron honey in the third Mithridatic War, Pompey certainly knew of it.

"His dead body also lay, for a good while, embalmed in honey..."

So here is the "interesting story" in Josephus and it aligns quite nicely with Revelation:

Revelation 10: 9 - 10 (RSV):

[9] So I went to the angel and told him to give me the little scroll; and he said to me, "Take it and eat; it will be bitter to your stomach, but sweet as honey in your mouth."
[10] And I took the little scroll from the hand of the angel and ate it; it was sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it my stomach was made bitter.

What is your interesting story here?

THNX,

CW

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