Martin --
Thank you for your comments. You've done some mighty respectable Posting here!
Martin Klatt wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:41 am
Charles Wilson wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:02 pm
PontiusPilate wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:06 pmMy question to you would be: What is your proof that Luke borrowed from Matthew?
Another question along the same lines might be, "From what did Matthew and Luke both borrow"? Leaving the simple answer, "From Mark" out of this, I have always been struck by 2 small passages from both:
Luke 13: 22 - 24 (RSV):
[22] He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
[23] And some one said to him, "Lord, will those who are saved be few?" And he said to them,
[24] "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Matthew 18: 1 4 (RSV):
[1] At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
[2] And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them,
[3] and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
[4] Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
This is the SAME STORY!!! Matthew and Luke appear to be reading from a common document. As to why Matthew had "turn as a child" and Luke had "enter through the narrow door" but neither had both leads to supposition as to how this "common document" was split.
Hmm. I am puzzled by the initial suggestion to leave out the simple answer. These áre probably redactions of Mark 10.
I'm not actually leaving out Mark but I am focusing on the 2 passages from Matthew and Luke.
Mark 10: 13 - 16 (RSV):
[13] And they were bringing children to him, that he might touch them; and the disciples rebuked them.
[14] But when Jesus saw it he was indignant, and said to them, "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God.
[15] Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."
[16] And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands upon them.
I am asserting that the passages in Matthew and Luke are NOT redactions of these Markan Verses but descriptions of the Story of the Priest who was saved by Peter. The Markan passage is another description of the same Story. I assert that the "Kingdom of God" is not Glorious Metaphysics of the Starry Realm but a Real, Physical Place in Antonia.
The two stories are already separate there. I don't understand the rest of the supposition about splitting, they had both the "children" part and the "camel through the needle's eye" part as well somewhere. So what is the point made?
The original question was a variation of the "Matthew had Mark open in front of him when he wrote the Book of Matthew". "Did Luke have Matthew open in front of him or vice-versa?" The answer appears to be that both Matthew and Luke had a common document in front of them when they wrote. They both Transvalue short descriptions, using "Kingdom of God" or "Realm of Heaven" to promote the Metaphysics of the New Religion. As such, they are not redactions.
Luke 19: 39 - 40 (RSV):
[39] And some of the Pharisees in the multitude said to him, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples."
[40] He answered, "I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out."
Josephus,
Wars..., 2, 1, 3:
"At this
Archclaus [sic] was aftrighted, and privately sent a tribune, with his cohort of soldiers, upon them, before the disease should spread over the whole multitude, and
gave orders that they should constrain those that began the tumult, by force, to be quiet. At these
the whole multitude were irritated, and threw stones at many of the soldiers, and killed them; but the tribune fled away wounded, and had much ado to escape so. After which they betook themselves to their sacrifices, as if they had done no mischief..."
Martin, you stated that if a posited Background Document could be produced, you would believe it. I assert that the entirety of the Gospels is that Document. When read with a different Intentionality and different Set of Actors (That is, "Jesus" is a Construction, the Original concerns a Priest at the Passover of 4 BCE...) the Story is easily seen. Josephus gives the external story, the Gospels give the internal Story. A Priest is caught between the Temple and Antonia as soldiers attempt to clear the Temple. 3000+ die. The Priest has No Way Out. He should have been murdered. A child, Peter, saves him. Am I leaving out Mark? How about the completed Story of Mark in Matthew?
Matthew 14: 23 - 31 (Moffatt):
[23] after he had dismissed the crowds he went up the hill by himself to pray. When evening came he was there alone,
[24] but the boat was in the middle of the sea, buffeted by the waves (for the wind was against them).
[25] In the fourth watch of the night he went to them, walking on the sea,
[26] but when they saw him walking on the sea they were terrified ; "It is a ghost," they said and they shrieked for fear.
[27] Then he spoke to them at once; "Courage," he said, " it is I, have no fear."
[28] Peter answered him, " Lord, if it is really you, order me to come to you on the water." He said,
[29] " Come." Then Peter got out of the boat and walked over the water on his way to Jesus ;
[30] but when he saw the wind he was afraid and began to sink. " Lord," he shouted, " save me."
[31] Jesus at once stretched his hand out and caught him, saying, " How little you trust me I Why did you doubt ? "
Here is a great passage:
"Fourth Watch": Roman/Greek term. Jewish fighters had 3 watches - May explain "Could you not stay awake one more hour?"
"It is a ghost": The Priest is seen by those in Antonia. He should already be dead.
Here is a Transvalued part of the Story: Peter is coming out to the ditch that surrounds Antonia. It is Peter who saves the Priest from certain death. The child takes the Priest to a small opening in Antonia and therefore:
Luke 13: 23 - 24 (RSV):
[23] And some one said to him, "Lord, will those who are saved be few?" And he said to them,
[24] "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Matthew 18: 2 - 4 (RSV):
[2] And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them,
[3] and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
[4] Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
This is not redaction. It is a part of the Original.
CW