Why Pilate? Because of JAVELIN in Joshua 8:18

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Giuseppe
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Why Pilate? Because of JAVELIN in Joshua 8:18

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:02 am

Homo Pilatus = Javelin, “armed-with-a-javelin ” (pilum).

Joshua 8:
18 Then the Lord said to Joshua, “Hold out toward Ai the javelin that is in your hand, for into your hand I will deliver the city.” So Joshua held out toward the city the javelin that was in his hand. 19 As soon as he did this, the men in the ambush rose quickly from their position and rushed forward. They entered the city and captured it and quickly set it on fire.
20 The men of Ai looked back and saw the smoke of the city rising up into the sky, but they had no chance to escape in any direction; the Israelites who had been fleeing toward the wilderness had turned back against their pursuers. 21 For when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had taken the city and that smoke was going up from it, they turned around and attacked the men of Ai. 22 Those in the ambush also came out of the city against them, so that they were caught in the middle, with Israelites on both sides. Israel cut them down, leaving them neither survivors nor fugitives. 23 But they took the king of Ai alive and brought him to Joshua.
24 When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and in the wilderness where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it. 25 Twelve thousand men and women fell that day—all the people of Ai. 26 For Joshua did not draw back the hand that held out his javelin until he had destroyed all who lived in Ai.

Could the irony behind "Pilate" be that the javelin ("Pilate") was allegorically "raised/thrown" toward Jesus/Israel - as his namesake Joshua had done towards the city [G]Ai - until the his "destruction" (crucifixion) occurring de facto (in the purported History) in 70 CE ?

The irony was that the "javelin" was addressed against/toward the same Israel, (just as if a modern [G]Ai) to punish Israel for his sins.


As the pilum could only be used effectively by those who had been long trained to its exercise, it was gradually laid aside by the unwarlike subjects of the Empire, and only partially adopted by the rude militia of the barbarous tribes around it. The hand missile of the Gauls was the gaesum (Pol. 6.39): it is mentioned by Livy as a Celtic weapon (Livy 28.45), and occurs in the Septuagint translation of Joshua (8.18), whence Hody infers the late translation of this book.

https://books.google.it/books?id=LFJASh ... um&f=false
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of JAVELIN in Joshua 8:18

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:28 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:02 am

Homo Pilatus = Javelin, “armed-with-a-javelin ” (pilum).

Joshua 8:
18 Then the Lord said to Joshua, “Hold out toward [the city] [G]Ai the javelin that is in your hand, for into your hand I will deliver the city.” So Joshua held out toward the city the javelin that was in his hand. 19 As soon as he did this, the men in the ambush rose quickly from their position and rushed forward. They entered the city and captured it and quickly set it on fire.

20 The men of [G]Ai looked back and saw the smoke of the city rising up into the sky, but they had no chance to escape in any direction; the Israelites who had been fleeing toward the wilderness had turned back against their pursuers. 21 For when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had taken the city and that smoke was going up from it, they turned around and attacked the men of [G]Ai. 22 Those in the ambush also came out of the city against them, so that they were caught in the middle, with Israelites on both sides. Israel cut them down, leaving them neither survivors nor fugitives. 23 But they took the king of [G]Ai alive and brought him to Joshua.

24 When Israel had finished killing all the men of [G]Ai in the fields and in the wilderness where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to [G]Ai and killed those who were in it. 25 Twelve thousand men and women fell that day—all the people of [G]Ai. 26 For Joshua did not draw back the hand that held out his javelin until he had destroyed all who lived in [G]Ai.1

Could the irony behind "Pilate" be that the javelin ("Pilate") was allegorically "raised/thrown" toward Jesus/Israel - as his namesake Joshua had done towards the city [G]Ai1 - with the his "destruction" (crucifixion) occurring de facto (in the purported History) ... ?

The irony was that the "javelin" was addressed against/toward the same 'Israel' - as if a modern [G]Ai - to punish Israel for his sins.1
1 This account of Joshua's use of a javelin has parallels with John 19:34, and, in context, the surrounding, wider John 19:31-37, -

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled2: “Not one of his bones will be broken,” [Exodus 12:46; Num. 9:12; Psalm 34:20] 37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.” [Zech. 12:10]

2 we could well add Joshua 8:18-26 to 'the scripture...fulfilled'

Giuseppe
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of JAVELIN in Joshua 8:18

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:10 am

Note that a spear is not precisely a javelim.

Note also the surprising parallelism:
  • (The Lord wants that) Joshua uses a javelim against [G]Ai.
  • (Satan wants that) The sinedrites use Pilate against Jesus.
The result is that Israel deserves the same fate of [G]Ai.


Hence I think that RG Price has detected the true essence of Mark when he says that the Jesus figure has been created as a literary device to tell an allegorical story “of how the Jews brought destruction upon themselves”.

But also Neil Godfrey is right when he recognizes, reviewing RG Price's book,
The “deciphering” in the title does not refer to any secret code but to a comprehensive, easy to follow presentation of how much each of the gospel narratives (focusing principally on the first written gospel, Mark) owes directly to Jewish or Old Testament scriptures

Effectively, there is no “secret code” to realize that Pilate is used by the sinedrites against Jesus just as the javelim is used by Joshua against [G]Ai. The irony is there, ready to be seen and recognized even by an outsider like me.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Marginal_Jew
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of JAVELIN in Joshua 8:18

Post by Marginal_Jew » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:57 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:10 am
Note that a spear is not precisely a javelim.

Note also the surprising parallelism:
  • (The Lord wants that) Joshua uses a javelim against [G]Ai.
  • (Satan wants that) The sinedrites use Pilate against Jesus.
The result is that Israel deserves the same fate of [G]Ai.


Hence I think that RG Price has detected the true essence of Mark when he says that the Jesus figure has been created as a literary device to tell an allegorical story “of how the Jews brought destruction upon themselves”.

But also Neil Godfrey is right when he recognizes, reviewing RG Price's book,
The “deciphering” in the title does not refer to any secret code but to a comprehensive, easy to follow presentation of how much each of the gospel narratives (focusing principally on the first written gospel, Mark) owes directly to Jewish or Old Testament scriptures

Effectively, there is no “secret code” to realize that Pilate is used by the sinedrites against Jesus just as the javelim is used by Joshua against [G]Ai. The irony is there, ready to be seen and recognized even by an outsider like me.
IMO RG Price's book 'Jesus the very Jewish myth' is probably one of the best mythicist book, and yeah I always wondered how abruptly Mark introduces Pilate with no background info (unlike he does with Joseph of Arimathea Mk 15:43) as if everybody reading in 70 CE or later knows about him.

BTW do you run a blog or something.?

Marginal_Jew
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of JAVELIN in Joshua 8:18

Post by Marginal_Jew » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:10 pm

IMO RG Price's book 'Jesus a very Jewish myth' is probably one of the best mythicist book, and yeah I always wondered how abruptly Mark introduces Pilate with no background info (Like he does with Joseph of Arimathea Mk 15:43) as if anybody reading in 70 CE or later already know about him.

BTW do you run a blog or something.?

Giuseppe
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of JAVELIN in Joshua 8:18

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:01 am

Marginal_Jew wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:10 pm
IMO RG Price's book 'Jesus a very Jewish myth' is probably one of the best mythicist book
I agree. Particularly in arguing against apologists who don't even concede a dating of Mark in second century or only hear the name of Marcion.
, and yeah I always wondered how abruptly Mark introduces Pilate with no background info (Like he does with Joseph of Arimathea Mk 15:43) as if anybody reading in 70 CE or later already know about him.
good point. Pilate seems circumscribed only to the Barabbas episode or to the his role as mere pawn in the hands of the synedrites. This leads us to doubt if the his role was so strictly connected with the story as it is often thought usually. Really, the story may work perfectly even without him. Just as there was no need of a "Joseph from Arimathea" to bury a corpse.
BTW do you run a blog or something.?
it is only in my native language, since my English language is so poor :facepalm: (besides the fact that I like a lot to hear the same arguments in the Dante's language). But I am not absolutely an expert. I deserve often fully criticisms by, let's say, Secret Alias or Stuart or Ben in this forum. And I change ideas again and again so not always a my thread or post is still "mine".
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of JAVELIN in Joshua 8:18

Post by Giuseppe » Fri May 17, 2019 11:10 am

In the Old Testament the word תורה ( ּi.e., Torah) is used for God’s Word, especially
referring to the whole of the Pentateuch. With that said, the noun torah comes from verb, yarah, that means to throw something, a javelin, say, so that it hits its mark. The word that hits its mark is torah.

Within the New Testament the penetrating nature of the Word is also shown in Hebrews 4:12,
“For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”

Pilate divides the spirit (Jesus called Christ) from the soul (Barabbas).

Take special note the words ‘active, sharp, piercing’ in Hebrews 4:12. Indeed, the Word breaks through and wounds. It takes away every ground of trust and ascribes redemption solely to the blood of Christ; it pricks and wounds the soul. This is
a health-bestowing wound, for these weapons kill in order to make alive.

Pilate (homo pilatus, the man armed with javelim), is allegory of the Law (Torah) that kills.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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