The Crucifixion is absent in Hebrews

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Giuseppe
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The Crucifixion is absent in Hebrews

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:41 pm

Not only in Revelation the crucifixion is absent, as conceded by Bernard:
Bernard Muller wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:58 pm
About Rev 11:8:
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified


So "our Lord crucified" is figurative as God being inflicted pain because of the killing of Jews and the destruction of Jerusalem & its temple in 70 CE, which is what a Jewish Christian could not have written because it is Jesus who is crucified, in Jerusalem.
...but also in Hebrews the crucifixion is absent. Jesus is only a celestial High Priest who gives the his life as sacrifice.


I think that the Crucifixion was a scandal for all the Jews, Jewish-Christians and not-Christians. The "scandal" in their eyes is even worse since the corpse of Jesus was crucified, per the Ascension of Isaiah , therefore going directly against the curse of Deutoronomy.

Hence the older conception assumes a Jesus Expiatory Sacrifice.

Paul introduced the post-mortem crucifixion of this Jesus.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Bernard Muller
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Re: The Crucifixion is absent in Hebrews

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:49 am

The Crucifixion is absent in Hebrews. Really?
Heb 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

Giuseppe
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Re: The Crucifixion is absent in Hebrews

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:17 am

Bernard Muller wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:49 am
The Crucifixion is absent in Hebrews. Really?
Heb 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Alfred Loisy (Histoire et mythe, p. 102) considers that passage an interpolation, just as Hebrews 6:4-6:

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

In Hebrews 9:22 :
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

The problem with the crucifixion is that there is not shedding of blood from a crucified person. Hence the author of Hebrews 9:22 can't be the same author of the quotes above.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: The Crucifixion is absent in Hebrews

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:48 am

In virtue of the same reason, the Crucifixion is absent in Revelation.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Bernard Muller
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Re: The Crucifixion is absent in Hebrews

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:53 am

First, the Crucifixion is not absent in Hebrews. Regardless to what Loisy thinks.
Second, crucifixions were not bloodless, especially if nails were used. Even with attachments by ropes, movements of the crucified would create bloody lacerations.

Cicero, Against Verres 2.4.11: With what face have you presented yourself before the eyes of the Roman people, when you have not yet pulled down that cross which is even now stained with Roman blood, which is fixed up in your city by the harbor, and have not thrown it into the sea and purified all that place, before you came to Rome, and before this tribunal?

Also flogging prior to crucifixion would be bloody:
Livy wrote in History of Rome 22.13 of a guide who "was scourged and crucified in order to strike terror into the others," and in History of Rome 22.13 of a magistrate and a treasurer whom Mago had "scourged and crucified"

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

Giuseppe
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Re: The Crucifixion is absent in Hebrews

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:26 am

I think that an immolated Lamb implies more shedding of blood than a mere crucifixion. And clearly who wrote Hebrews 9:22 wanted the maximum of shedding of blood for Jesus (more blood ---> more expiation). So the crucifixion is not the best candidate for a such effect.

The crucifixion seems to be designed to prevent the shedding of blood.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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