Romans 9-11 & the temple's destruction

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John2
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Re: Romans 9-11 & the temple's destruction

Post by John2 » Mon May 20, 2019 7:06 am

Irish1975 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 6:37 am
"...with the exception of Clement of Alexandria and Origen, there is no evidence that any ante-Nicene father quoted from [Romans] 15 and 16..."
W.H. Ryder, "The Authorship of Romans XV, XVI" Journal of Biblical Literature (1898), p. 186

So other than the evidence of Clement of Alexandria and Origen there is no evidence?
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Romans 9-11 & the temple's destruction

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon May 20, 2019 7:34 am

Peter Kirby has a very good list of discussions of chapters 15 and 16 of Romans, one which I integrated into my treatment of Marcion's texts on this forum a few years ago:
Peter Kirby wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:38 am
On the last two chapters of Romans, see Baur, Weisse, Ryder, Lightfoot, Sanday, Smith, Lake, Goodspeed, Gamble, Kinoshita, Kaye, Donfried, Das, and Longenecker. On the doxology, see Bacon, Burkett, Koester, Hultgren, Jewett, and Longenecker.
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Irish1975
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Re: Romans 9-11 & the temple's destruction

Post by Irish1975 » Mon May 20, 2019 7:49 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:34 am
Peter Kirby has a very good list of discussions of chapters 15 and 16 of Romans, one which I integrated into my treatment of Marcion's texts on this forum a few years ago:
Peter Kirby wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:38 am
On the last two chapters of Romans, see Baur, Weisse, Ryder, Lightfoot, Sanday, Smith, Lake, Goodspeed, Gamble, Kinoshita, Kaye, Donfried, Das, and Longenecker. On the doxology, see Bacon, Burkett, Koester, Hultgren, Jewett, and Longenecker.
Wonderful, thanks. I have been examining Baur and Ryder.

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Re: Romans 9-11 & the temple's destruction

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon May 20, 2019 7:59 am

John2 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:06 am
Irish1975 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 6:37 am
"...with the exception of Clement of Alexandria and Origen, there is no evidence that any ante-Nicene father quoted from [Romans] 15 and 16..."
W.H. Ryder, "The Authorship of Romans XV, XVI" Journal of Biblical Literature (1898), p. 186
So other than the evidence of Clement of Alexandria and Origen there is no evidence?
There probably ought to at least be a discussion of Paul's travel plans in the disputed chapters in light of Clement of Rome and the Muratorian Canon:

Romans 15.18-25: 18 For I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me, resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles by word and deed, 19 in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit; so that from Jerusalem and round about as far as Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 20 And thus I aspired to preach the gospel, not where Christ was already named, so that I would not build on another man’s foundation; 21 but as it is written, “They who had no news of Him shall see, and they who have not heard shall understand.” 22 For this reason I have often been prevented from coming to you; 23 but now, with no further place for me in these regions, and since I have had for many years a longing to come to you 24 whenever I go to Spain [εἰς τὴν Σπανίαν] — for I hope to see you in passing, and to be helped on my way there by you, when I have first enjoyed your company for a while — 25 but now, I am going to Jerusalem serving the saints.

1 Clement 5.5-6: 5 Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, 6 having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience.

Muratorian Canon, lines 35-39: Lucas optimo Theophilo comprehendit quia sub praesentia eius singula gerebantur, sicut et remote passionem Petri evidenter declarat, sed et profectionem Pauli ab urbe ad Spaniam proficiscentis. / Luke for the most excellent Theophilus compiled the singular things that happened in his presence, as he also evidently declares with the removal of the passion of Peter, but also the departure of Paul from the city proceeding to Spain.

Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Mon May 20, 2019 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Irish1975
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Re: Romans 9-11 & the temple's destruction

Post by Irish1975 » Mon May 20, 2019 8:08 am

John2 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:06 am
Irish1975 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 6:37 am
"...with the exception of Clement of Alexandria and Origen, there is no evidence that any ante-Nicene father quoted from [Romans] 15 and 16..."
W.H. Ryder, "The Authorship of Romans XV, XVI" Journal of Biblical Literature (1898), p. 186

So other than the evidence of Clement of Alexandria and Origen there is no evidence?
That Clement and Origen quoted from chapter 15 or 16 in the 3rd century is, of course, not evidence of the Pauline authenticity of those texts. As noted above, Origen also testifies to the shorter version in Marcion.

The point of the quotation from Ryder is that no one else before Nicea is citing from the longer versions, not even (if my sources are correct) Tertullian or Irenaeus. This fact doesn't prove anything by itself, but it does count in favor a 14-chapter original.

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Re: Romans 9-11 & the temple's destruction

Post by John2 » Tue May 21, 2019 6:10 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:59 am
John2 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:06 am
Irish1975 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 6:37 am
"...with the exception of Clement of Alexandria and Origen, there is no evidence that any ante-Nicene father quoted from [Romans] 15 and 16..."
W.H. Ryder, "The Authorship of Romans XV, XVI" Journal of Biblical Literature (1898), p. 186
So other than the evidence of Clement of Alexandria and Origen there is no evidence?
There probably ought to at least be a discussion of Paul's travel plans in the disputed chapters in light of Clement of Rome and the Muratorian Canon:

Romans 15.18-25: 18 For I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me, resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles by word and deed, 19 in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit; so that from Jerusalem and round about as far as Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 20 And thus I aspired to preach the gospel, not where Christ was already named, so that I would not build on another man’s foundation; 21 but as it is written, “They who had no news of Him shall see, and they who have not heard shall understand.” 22 For this reason I have often been prevented from coming to you; 23 but now, with no further place for me in these regions, and since I have had for many years a longing to come to you 24 whenever I go to Spain [εἰς τὴν Σπανίαν] — for I hope to see you in passing, and to be helped on my way there by you, when I have first enjoyed your company for a while — 25 but now, I am going to Jerusalem serving the saints.

1 Clement 5.5-6: 5 Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, 6 having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience.

Muratorian Canon, lines 35-39: Lucas optimo Theophilo comprehendit quia sub praesentia eius singula gerebantur, sicut et remote passionem Petri evidenter declarat, sed et profectionem Pauli ab urbe ad Spaniam proficiscentis. / Luke for the most excellent Theophilus compiled the singular things that happened in his presence, as he also evidently declares with the removal of the passion of Peter, but also the departure of Paul from the city proceeding to Spain.


Nice, Ben. And since I date 1 Clement c. 95 CE that might be evidence for Romans 15 being original or at least pre-Marcion.
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Re: Romans 9-11 & the temple's destruction

Post by John2 » Tue May 21, 2019 6:21 am

Irish1975 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 8:08 am
John2 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:06 am
Irish1975 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 6:37 am
"...with the exception of Clement of Alexandria and Origen, there is no evidence that any ante-Nicene father quoted from [Romans] 15 and 16..."
W.H. Ryder, "The Authorship of Romans XV, XVI" Journal of Biblical Literature (1898), p. 186

So other than the evidence of Clement of Alexandria and Origen there is no evidence?
That Clement and Origen quoted from chapter 15 or 16 in the 3rd century is, of course, not evidence of the Pauline authenticity of those texts. As noted above, Origen also testifies to the shorter version in Marcion.

The point of the quotation from Ryder is that no one else before Nicea is citing from the longer versions, not even (if my sources are correct) Tertullian or Irenaeus. This fact doesn't prove anything by itself, but it does count in favor a 14-chapter original.

Clement of Alexandria lived mostly in the second century CE (c. 150 CE to c. 215 CE according to Wikipedia), and while I don't know when he wrote the following, he cites Rom. 15:29 here:
For I know, says the Apostle, that when I come to you, I shall come in the fullness of the blessing of Christ.

https://books.google.com/books?id=qI_OC ... 15&f=false

So perhaps we could at least take Rom. 15 back to the late second century CE (or even to the late first century CE if 1 Clement counts, as per Ben's citation above).
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Re: Romans 9-11 & the temple's destruction

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue May 21, 2019 7:06 am

John2 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 6:21 am
So perhaps we could at least take Rom. 15 back to the late second century CE (or even to the late first century CE if 1 Clement counts, as per Ben's citation above).
The Chester Beatty papyrus (Ƿ46) already kind of does that. It contains chapters 15 and 16 of Romans and dates, probably, to around 175-225. (It places the doxology, however, in between chapters 15 and 16, thus providing evidence of a 15 chapter version of Romans in circulation.)

All three forms of Romans (14, 15, and 16 chapters) thus almost certainly date back to century II. The evidence from that century, however, is pretty meager (Clement of Alexandria, Chester Beatty, Marcion as discussed by Tertullian, and possibly Clement of Rome and the Muratorian Canon), so it means little or nothing that the evidence for one form may predate the evidence for another within that span of time, since the sheer number of data points is so small. Evidence being missing from century IV and on probably means something; evidence being missing from century II is par for the course. The kinds of evidence are different, as well: Chester Beatty is by far the earliest hard evidence, while the other bits of evidence are a matter of medieval manuscripts testifying to the text of a church father (Tertullian, for example), who in turn may be testifying to the text of someone even earlier (Marcion). If Paul really wrote in century I, then we are left almost strictly with internal evidence for or against the various forms of Romans, as is usual for this kind of inquiry about Christian origins.
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Re: Romans 9-11 & the temple's destruction

Post by Irish1975 » Tue May 21, 2019 7:32 am

Thus far I have taken no position as to who actually wrote Romans 15, whether it was Paul, or someone from the 2nd century. But after reading Baur's masterful dissection (Paul the Apostle of Jesus Christ, Vol. 1, pp. 369-81), there is some evidence of the latter.

Consider these thematic and verbal parallels. I plan to say more about them in a later post, and to add some of Baur's comments.

2 Corinthians 10:13-17

13 ἡμεῖς δὲ οὐκ εἰς τὰ ἄμετρα καυχησόμεθα, ἀλλὰ κατὰ τὸ μέτρον τοῦ κανόνος οὗ ἐμέρισεν ἡμῖν ὁ θεὸς μέτρου, ἐφικέσθαι ἄχρι καὶ ὑμῶν. 14 οὐ γὰρ ὡς μὴ ἐφικνούμενοι εἰς ὑμᾶς ὑπερεκτείνομεν ἑαυτούς, ἄχρι γὰρ καὶ ὑμῶν ἐφθάσαμεν ἐν τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ τοῦ Χριστοῦ· 15 οὐκ εἰς τὰ ἄμετρα καυχώμενοι ἐν ἀλλοτρίοις κόποις, ἐλπίδα δὲ ἔχοντες αὐξανομένης τῆς πίστεως ὑμῶν ἐν ὑμῖν μεγαλυνθῆναι κατὰ τὸν κανόνα ἡμῶν εἰς περισσείαν, 16 εἰς τὰ ὑπερέκεινα ὑμῶν εὐαγγελίσασθαι, οὐκ ἐν ἀλλοτρίῳ κανόνι εἰς τὰ ἕτοιμα καυχήσασθαι. 17 "Ὁ δὲ καυχώμενος ἐν κυρίῳ καυχάσθω·"

13 But we will not boast beyond limit, but will keep to the limits God has apportioned us, to reach even to you. 14 For we are not overextending ourselves, as though we did not reach you; we were the first to come all the way to you with the gospel of Christ. 15 We do not boast beyond limit, in other men’s labors; but our hope is that as your faith increases, our field among you may be greatly enlarged, 16 so that we may preach the gospel in lands beyond you, without boasting of work already done in another’s field. 17 “Let him who boasts, boast of the Lord.”
Romans 15:17-20

17 ἔχω οὖν τὴν καύχησιν ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τὰ πρὸς τὸν θεόν. 18 οὐ γὰρ τολμήσω τι λαλεῖν ὧν οὐ κατειργάσατο Χριστὸς δι' ἐμοῦ εἰς ὑπακοὴν ἐθνῶν, λόγῳ καὶ ἔργῳ, 19 ἐν δυνάμει σημείων καὶ τεράτων, ἐν δυνάμει πνεύματος. ὥστε με ἀπὸ Ἰερουσαλὴμ καὶ κύκλῳ μέχρι τοῦ Ἰλλυρικοῦ πεπληρωκέναι τὸ εὐαγγέλιον τοῦ Χριστοῦ, 20 οὕτως δὲ φιλοτιμούμενον εὐαγγελίζεσθαι οὐχ ὅπου ὠνομάσθη Χριστός, ἵνα μὴ ἐπ' ἀλλότριον θεμέλιον οἰκοδομῶ



17 In Christ Jesus, then, I have reason to boast [often translated 'glory' or 'be proud of'] of my work for God. 18 For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has wrought through me to win obedience from the Gentiles, by word and deed, 19 by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Holy Spirit, so that from Jerusalem and as far round as Illyr′icum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ, 20 thus making it my ambition to preach the gospel, not where Christ has already been named, lest I build on another man’s foundation
2 Corinthians 12:12

12 τὰ μὲν σημεῖα τοῦ ἀποστόλου κατειργάσθη ἐν ὑμῖν ἐν πάσῃ ὑπομονῇ, σημείοις τε καὶ τέρασιν καὶ δυνάμεσιν.


12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you in all patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.
Romans 15:18-19a

18 οὐ γὰρ τολμήσω τι λαλεῖν ὧν οὐ κατειργάσατο Χριστὸς δι' ἐμοῦ εἰς ὑπακοὴν ἐθνῶν, λόγῳ καὶ ἔργῳ, 19 ἐν δυνάμει σημείων καὶ τεράτων, ἐν δυνάμει πνεύματος.

18 For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has wrought through me to win obedience from the Gentiles, by word and deed, 19 by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Holy Spirit
Acts 20:22-23

22 "καὶ νῦν ἰδοὺ δεδεμένος ἐγὼ τῷ πνεύματι πορεύομαι εἰς Ἰερουσαλήμ, τὰ ἐν αὐτῇ συναντήσοντά μοι μὴ εἰδώς, 23 πλὴν ὅτι τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον κατὰ πόλιν διαμαρτύρεταί μοι λέγον ὅτι δεσμὰ καὶ θλίψεις με μένουσιν.




22 And now, behold, I am going to Jerusalem, bound in the Spirit, not knowing what shall befall me there; 23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me.
Romans 15:25,30-31

25 νυνὶ δὲ πορεύομαι εἰς Ἰερουσαλὴμ διακονῶν τοῖς ἁγίοις.
30 Παρακαλῶ δὲ ὑμᾶς, ἀδελφοί, διὰ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ καὶ διὰ τῆς ἀγάπης τοῦ πνεύματος, συναγωνίσασθαί μοι ἐν ταῖς προσευχαῖς ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ πρὸς τὸν θεόν, 31 ἵνα ῥυσθῶ ἀπὸ τῶν ἀπειθούντων ἐν τῇ Ἰουδαίᾳ καὶ ἡ διακονία μου ἡ εἰς Ἰερουσαλὴμ εὐπρόσδεκτος τοῖς ἁγίοις γένηται

25 At present, however, I am going to Jerusalem with aid for the saints.
30 I appeal to you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf, 31 that I may be delivered from the unbelievers in Judea, and that my service for Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints


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Re: Romans 9-11 & the temple's destruction

Post by andrewcriddle » Tue May 21, 2019 6:54 pm

There is an old thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=168 about the textual history of Romans which may be of interest.

Andrew Criddle

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