Mark 7: The Syrophoenician Woman-Tentative

[Charles Wilson]

Mark 7: 24 – 30 (RSV):

[24] And from there he arose and went away to the region of Tyre and Sidon. And he entered a house, and would not have any one know it; yet he could not be hid.
[25] But immediately a woman, whose little daughter was possessed by an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell down at his feet.
[26] Now the woman was a Greek, a Syrophoeni'cian by birth. And she begged him to cast the demon out of her daughter.
[27] And he said to her, "Let the children first be fed, for it is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."
[28] But she answered him, "Yes, Lord; yet even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs."
[29] And he said to her, "For this saying you may go your way; the demon has left your daughter."
[30] And she went home, and found the child lying in bed, and the demon gone.

This is an awkward passage for many. By several analyses, this is an insertion from another hand. In his Study of Markan Chiasms, Michael Turton has stated,

“...A chiasm can be constructed, but the triplet chreia structure, unlike any other in Mark, the fact that no clear bracketing is available for the verse I have blocked out as CDE, and the lack of a neat doublet in the center, as well as the masked ABBA and ABAB structures, all indicate that this is probably not from the hand of the writer of Mark....” [[Possible Chiasm is then given]]

http://www.michaelturton.com/Mark/GMark07.html

I tend to look for other Meta-Story clues. The woman healed by Jesus and “Jairus' Daughter” have “12 years...” in common and they point to that “radically different” set of Stories involving the House of Eleazar, “Immer” and the Hasmoneans, especially Alexander Jannaeus. This Story has many such indicators but I may end up with more than I bargained for. This started today.

After considering a few paths, I began looking at this as another Alexander Jannaeus Story. Jannaeus is found in Antiquities..., Book 13. My work usually starts with Hyrcanus being insulted by Eleazar (“Hmmm...”) in 13, 10, 5. I'm now moving to an earlier time.

Let's begin with Cleopatra III, who has a son Lathyros (I'm trying to keep this under 50 pages...). IF this is a Story about Jannaeus and IF there is Woman involved, then maybe this might be what works. We find Jannaeus has made an agreement with Cleopatra:

Josephus, Antiquities..., 13, 13, 2 (In Parts):

“Alexander came to her, he gave her presents, and such marks of respect as were but proper...”

Some “friends” want to seize Jannaeus so that if Cleopatra wanted, she might take Judea, except one “Ananias”:

“This desire of Ananias Cleopatra complied with, and did no injury to Alexander, but made a league of mutual assistance with him at Scythopolis, a city of Celesyria.”

Jannaeus then gets serious and does some heavy damage to some people – again, see Mark 13 for details.

Now, why would Cleopatra want to make nice with Jannaeus? We find out earlier:

Josephus, Ant..., 13, 10, 4:

“Now it happened at this time, that not only those Jews who were at Jerusalem and in Judea were in prosperity, but also those of them that were at Alexandria, and in Egypt and Cyprus; for Cleopatra the queen was at variance with her son Ptolemy, who was called Lathyrus, and appointed for her generals Chelcias and Ananias, the sons of that Onias who built the temple in the prefecture of Heliopolis, like to that at Jerusalem, as we have elsewhere related. Cleopatra intrusted these men with her army, and did nothing without their advice, as Strabo of Cappadocia attests, when he saith thus, "Now the greater part, both those that came to Cyprus with us, and those that were sent afterward thither, revolted to Ptolemy immediately; only those that were called Onias's party, being Jews, continued faithful, because their countrymen Chelcias and Ananias were in chief favor with the queen."

Faithful Jews, sons of Onias who did what...?!?? They built a Temple like that of Jerusalem.

Ant..., 13, 3, 1:

"Having done many and great things for you in the affairs of the war, by the assistance of God, and that in Celesyria and Phoenicia, I came at length with the Jews to Leontopolis, and to other places of your nation, where I found that the greatest part of your people had temples in an improper manner, and that on this account they bare ill-will one against another, which happens to the Egyptians by reason of the multitude of their temples, and the difference of opinions about Divine worship. Now I found a very fit place in a castle that hath its name from the country Diana...”

The “Cleopatra” mentioned is the mother of Cleopatra III but it certainly appears that Mommy has provided for Daughter here. She has prepared her daughter to be freed from the demons that afflicted her. Cleopatra III could have killed Jannaeus but did not because of the results of her Mother's actions. We have our Syrophoenicia tie and we note one other: “...from the country of Diana”. Diana, the Huntress, often pictured with dogs. The King and this Queen Cleopatra reply:

“"King Ptolemy and queen Cleopatra to Onias, send greeting. We have read thy petition, wherein thou desirest leave to be given thee to purge that temple which is fallen down at Leontopolis, in the Nomus of Heliopolis, and which is named from the country Bubastis; on which account we cannot but wonder that it should be pleasing to God to have a temple erected in a place so unclean, and so full of sacred animals...”

There's more...

CW

[ghost]

[25] But immediately a woman, whose little daughter was possessed by an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell down at his feet.

The "Syro-Phoenician" woman is Cleopatra.

Plutarch, Caesar 49:2

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... .html#49.2

2 and as it was impossible to escape notice otherwise, she stretched herself at full length inside a bed-sack, while Apollodorus tied the bed-sack up with a cord and carried it indoors to Caesar.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

I would say that the syrophoenician woman has a very rich potential for many Meta-Storys.

You have very well pointed out a „roman“ meta-story. Here are a few other possibilities:

with jewish backround
- Elijah´s widow of Zarephath
- Elisha´s Shunammite woman
- the daughter of Tyre (Psalm 45:12)
- Jezebel, a princess of Tyre and Sidon and the wife of Ahab
- Hiram of Tyre

with greek backround
- Europa, a princess of Sidon and the beloved of Zeus
- Helen of Troy (came with Paris to Sidon)

I´m sure our Robert Tulip will take note with interest that Europa was according to the Iliad the daughter of Agenor's son, the "sun-red" Phoenix.

with christian backround
- Simon Magus´ Helen of Tyre
- the church of Antioch or a early syrophoenician church (transformed in a woman)
- the righteousness which is of faith (Romans 10 - transformed in a woman)

[beowulf]

Pilgrims pray at the Lourdes grotto



She was a mother like the ones we can find today . Suffering has magical transforming powers that compel humans to howl for help.


It is the best episode in Mark's .

[Blood]

The story is embarrassing (to the woman), therefore nobody would have invented it, therefore it really happened.

[Charles Wilson]

Thanx, ghost and everyone. This is a start.

ghost: I don't believe that the J Caesar - Cleopatra match you give is a good fit. The offspring of that liaison was (supposedly) "Caesarion". The Motif of Mother-Daughter is not apparent.
There is even another Mother-Daughter Roman Story, where the Daughter is on the floor (Notice the subtle rewrite. Let the arguments over Annals begin!):

Acts 5: 9 - 10 (RSV)
[9] But Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Hark, the feet of those that have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out."
[10] Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

Did you guess the Story of Messalina?

There are LOTS of Roman Stories! This one, however, appears to be a "Jannaeus Story". Any comments on this possibility?

CW

[ghost]

ghost: I don't believe that the J Caesar - Cleopatra match you give is a good fit. The offspring of that liaison was (supposedly) "Caesarion". The Motif of Mother-Daughter is not apparent.

The "daughter" is the same as the "mother". Both are Cleopatra VII.

[Charles Wilson]

1.ghost: A little background may help. I found out about Carotta late. I've studied Atwill and had MANY discussions with him. I believe that he is substantially correct. I verified his thesis in a different way, by examining each Story in the Gospels and, at worst, playing "Match 'em Up", at best unifying his thesis beyond what he has written in Caesar's Messiah. People who criticize him need to realize that if you limit yourself to strictly CM, you miss out on a broad expanse of material that enhances his thesis.

I am sympathetic to the Roman Thesis and I understand - more than you know - the desire to place a story into a particular framework. PhilosopherJay's book, Christs and Christianities, goes a long way to understanding what happens when you examine - as any football coach will tell you - "Who holds the pen last"? The "Frameworks" change, in sometimes radical ways and in a short amount of time. What is heresy at one moment may become orthodoxy the next - and vice versa.

2. If you strip out the "Roman Stories", the "Caesar Stories" and the like, what is left? Quite a bit, actually. Christianity is "built" on the debris of a particular type of Judaism and we now try to analyze what the "Christian Community" MUST have been like while we have lost what the Jewish Community WAS all about. Supersessionist Christianity rewrites history - Jewish History - and then cannot remember what was rewritten or why. Rather than examine what is almost derisively termed "The Temple Cult" of Jerusalem and see what might be explained, something like a "Q Community" is manufactured.

Mark: 9: 42 (RSV):

[42] "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

This is a Herod Story. How would you know? It isn't about a Caesar. No Greek here. Yet, it's screaming at you: "Did anyone ever throw a "Millstone of a donkey" in the sea"? Yes. Herod did. Why did Herod throw giant stones in the Sea? How would that cause a "Little One" to sin? "Dunno. Let's stretch the skin tighter on this drum to cover the situation and start bangin' away." No. Let's not.

3. There is another way out of this. By way of example: When I began seeing this Great Sweep of a different History, I came up to an explicit contradiction with Atwill. In Mark,"The Lunatic" is possessed by "Legion". To Atwill, this is signified by the Lunatic being possessed by '"Seditionists", who will be cleansed and sent into a herd of swine. Romans win! In my view, it means what it says: The Lunatic is possessed by the Legions - The Romans and their Stooges, the Herodians. "Well, which is correct?' Answer?: BOTH. The Story has been re-manufactured to a Roman End and the meanings have been INVERTED.

4. So: I appreciate that there is Carotta Mapping. Atwill Mapping. 'N there is more left over. Weitzman posits a community north of Judea. The Aramaic translators are screaming,"How can you not see this?!??" I ended this last part of research by looking at a settlement named "Jabnit". You don't "reason" your way to Jabnit. I did. Something happened in "Upper Galilee" and it ain't no "Q Community". What are we all looking at?

So, I respectfully ask you: If it helps to see a Ptolemaic Framework, by all means, bring it in. I've already found references to "Nicholas of Damascus" in Carotta. Nicholas is a PROFOUNDLY important character in the development of the NT. He probably manufactured the genealogy of Matthew 1. I ask you, however, to first consider that there is a substantially Historically Jewish set of Stories that became the NT. It involves (Again!) the House of Eleazar, the Hasmoneans, Immer, Mishmarot Service and The King and High Priest, Alexander Jannaeus. 'N two Passovers: The 4 BCE Passover and the 9 CE Passover. Does anyone else see this? Would someone look, please?

CW