In P52 Titus (and not Pilate) crucified Jesus

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Giuseppe
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In P52 Titus (and not Pilate) crucified Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Tue May 21, 2019 6:25 am

Rylands Library Papyrus P52

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rylands_L ... apyrus_P52

It is said that the part in bold is read from John 18:33 :

ΠΡΑΙΤΩΡΙΟΝ Ο ΠΙΛΑΤΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΕΦΩΝΗΣΕΝ ΤΟΝ ΙΗΣΟΥΝ

Image

But note the last symbol: it is not a Π but a T. Isn't it?

T for TITOΣ ? I.e. Titus.


The only Jesus crucified by Titus could only be Jesus ben Saphat.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: In P52 Titus (and not Pilate) crucified Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Tue May 21, 2019 7:06 am

Battle of Taricheæ: Titus defeated Jesus ben Saphat.

War 3:6 Luke 23:7-15

Hereupon Titus sent one of his horsemen to his father, and let him know the good news of what he had done; at which, as was natural, he was very joyful, both on account of the courage and glorious actions of his son; for he thought that now the greatest part of the war was over. He then came thither himself, and set men to guard the city, and gave them command to take care that nobody got privately out of it, but to kill such as attempted so to do.


7 When he learned that Jesus was under Herod’s jurisdiction, he sent him to Herod, who was also in Jerusalem at that time.
8 When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased, because for a long time he had been wanting to see him. From what he had heard about him, he hoped to see him perform a sign of some sort. 9 He plied him with many questions, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10 The chief priests and the teachers of the law were standing there, vehemently accusing him. 11 Then Herod and his soldiers ridiculed and mocked him. Dressing him in an elegant robe, they sent him back to Pilate. 12 That day Herod and Pilate became friends—before this they had been enemies.



In the Gospel fiction,

Titus became Pilatus

Vespasian became Herod.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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MrMacSon
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Re: In P52 Titus (and not Pilate) crucified Jesus

Post by MrMacSon » Wed May 22, 2019 1:35 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 7:06 am

Battle of Taricheæ: Titus defeated Jesus ben Saphat.

War 3:6 - [note the different bolding and underlining] Luke 23:7-15

Hereupon Titus sent one of his horsemen to his father, and let him know the good news of what he had done; at which, as was natural, he was very joyful, both on account of the courage and glorious actions of his son; for he thought that now the greatest part of the war was over. He then came thither himself, and set men to guard the city, and gave them command to take care that nobody got privately out of it, but to kill such as attempted so to do.


7 When he learned that Jesus was under Herod’s jurisdiction, he sent him to Herod, who was also in Jerusalem at that time.
8 When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased, because for a long time he had been wanting to see him. From what he had heard about him, he hoped to see him perform a sign of some sort. 9 He plied him with many questions, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10 The chief priests and the teachers of the law were standing there, vehemently accusing him. 11 Then Herod and his soldiers ridiculed and mocked him. Dressing him in an elegant robe, they sent him back to Pilate. 12 That day Herod and Pilate became friends—before this they had been enemies.


In the Gospel fiction,

Titus became Pilatus

Vespasian became Herod.
Yes, the handing over of Jesus does seem to reflect and parallel defeat of the Jews by the Romans (and perhaps some otherwise poorly documented events at some point - in the First Roman-Jewish War, and/or perhaps even the Second War* and perhaps reflecting the fate of Simon Bar Kokhba; in which case X became Pilate and Hadrian would have become Herod), -

* ie., the gospels may reflect events in or outcomes of both wars

[According to Lamentations Rabbah, the head of Bar Kokhba was presented to Emperor Hadrian after the Siege of Betar.]

.
Luke 23:8-15

8 When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased, because for a long time he had been wanting to see him ... he hoped to see him perform a sign of some sort. 9 He plied him with many questions, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10 The chief priests and the teachers of the law were standing there, vehemently accusing him. 11 Then Herod and his soldiers ridiculed and mocked him. Dressing him in an elegant robe, they sent him back to Pilate. 12 That day Herod and Pilate became friends—before this they had been enemies.



Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: In P52 Titus (and not Pilate) crucified Jesus

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Thu May 23, 2019 10:39 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 6:25 am
Image

But note the last symbol: it is not a Π but a T. Isn't it?

T for TITOΣ ? I.e. Titus.

To the right of the sign (marked in red in the photo below), identified by you as a Tau, is still a stroke (marked with an arrow), which most likely is not an Iota. The word “Titus” is probably unlikely.

I agree that the sign looks unusual for a Pi (other Pi's are marked in green on the recto-side). On the other hand it looks also unusual for a Tau (other Tau's are marked in blue on the verso-side). I have marked a few Eta's in purple and was surprised how different they look like.

I would not rule out that on the papyrus is a little bump or it is damaged and it is therefore nevertheless a Pi.
P52.jpg
P52.jpg (305.24 KiB) Viewed 2517 times
Giuseppe wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 6:25 am
Rylands Library Papyrus P52

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rylands_L ... apyrus_P52
Roberts noted that the writing is painstaking and rather laboured, with instances of individual letters formed using several strokes "with a rather clumsy effect" (e.g. the sigma Σ at line three of the recto, and the eta H immediately following it).[10] Several letters are inclined to stray away from the notional upper and lower writing lines.[21] Another peculiarity is that there are two distinct forms of the letter alpha Α;[22] most are formed from a separate loop and diagonal stroke, where the top of the stroke has a distinctive decorative arch while the bottom is hooked; but on the fourth line of the verso there is a smaller alpha formed by a single spiralling loop with no arch or hooks. Also present in two forms is the letter upsilon Υ; the more common form is constructed from two strokes, each stroke terminating in a decorative hook or finial (see the second line of the recto); but on the fourth line of the verso is an upsilon formed from a single looped stroke with no decoration.[20] These observations support Roberts's supposition that the scribe was an educated person writing carefully in imitation of a calligraphic hand, rather than a professional scribe writing to order; such that, on occasion, the writer inadvertently reverted to the undecorated (and often smaller) letter forms of his everyday hand.

Roberts noted that in addition to alpha and upsilon, other letters also tend to be given decorative hooks, especially iota Ι and omega Ω (both seen in the seventh line of the recto).[10] He also drew attention to the forms of epsilon Ε (with an extended cross-stroke a little above the centre-line, as in the fourth line of the verso), delta Δ (with a decorative arch, as in the first and second lines of the recto) and mu Μ (with a central stroke dipping down to the baseline, as in the third line of the recto).[10] Nongbri confirms Roberts observations, and also notes distinctive forms of rho Ρ (with a small head and an undecorated downstroke extending well below the lower line, as in the second line of the verso),[20] pi Π (with an extended horizontal stroke, as in the third line of the recto)[11] and kappa Κ (formed like the looped upsilon with an additional downwards stroke, as in the fourth line of the recto).[20] Aside from their sometimes clumsy construction, the sigma and eta are also distinctive in form; the sigma facing fully to the right, and the eta having a distinctive high cross stroke.

Giuseppe
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Re: In P52 Titus (and not Pilate) crucified Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Thu May 23, 2019 10:56 am

Now that I see it again, it seems a Π (for Pilate) that seems to be divided (by the long time) in two (false) T, something as:

Π ---> TT -----> T T ------> the first false T is survived, while the other false T is lost.

I hope that the my explanation is clear.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: In P52 Titus (and not Pilate) crucified Jesus

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Fri May 24, 2019 10:20 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 10:56 am
Now that I see it again, it seems a Π (for Pilate) that seems to be divided (by the long time) in two (false) T, something as:

Π ---> TT -----> T T ------> the first false T is survived, while the other false T is lost.

I hope that the my explanation is clear.
That's a very good idea! The other two Pi's of P52 look like two connected Tau's. :cheers:

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