"He is calling Elijah"

[Giuseppe]

If Jesus was calling really Elijah, then he was calling the same spiritual power who possessed (and abandoned) John the Baptist (= the prophet known to have the "spirit of Elijah" on himself).

Hence John was possessed by an entity who was transferred, later, on the man Jesus.

But was that entity really Elijah?

Probably not. That entity was the spiritual Christ who possessed (and abandoned) before John, then Jesus.

If I remember well, there was a sect of Christians who believed that Christ had shown himself more and more times in the time, going from a prophet to another and so on (starting from Adam).

But was Mark interested more to make the point that Jesus was invoking YHWH (against Cerdon) or was he more interested to exorcize the risk of a confusion between Jesus and John as both possessed (and abandoned) by the same power?

[Giuseppe]

A better explanation:

Mark was correcting Cdn (the Cerdon's Gospel) insofar he was replacing the disappearance of Jesus from the cross (found in Cdn) with the missed appearance of Elijah to save Jesus. While in Cdn Jesus was enigmatically disappeared, in Mark it is Elijah to be enigmatically missing.

Just as Elijah was missing since he was not really invoked by Jesus (pace what the people around had thought), so in Cdn Jesus was missing since he was not really a human being (pace what the people around had thought).

[Charles Wilson]

A really better explanation:

Tacitus, Histories, Book 4:

They [The Germans] saw opposed to them what seemed a hostile array, threatening them with javelin and sword. They saw themselves hemmed in, without arms, filthy and squalid. And when they began to be separated, some to be marched to one spot, and some to another, a thrill of terror ran through them all. Among the troops from Germany the panic was particularly great; for they believed that this separation marked them out for slaughter. They embraced their fellow soldiers, clung to their necks, begged for parting kisses, and entreated that they might not be deserted, or doomed in a common cause to suffer a different lot. They invoked now Mucianus, now the absent Emperor, and, as a last resource, heaven and the Gods, till Mucianus came forward, and calling them "soldiers bound by the same oath and servants of the same Emperor," stopped the groundless panic..."

The End of the Interregnum. The Julio-Claudians are finished. Vespasian will soon march into Rome and be given Imperial Power by Mucianus. Not much in the way of Gnostic Metaphysics. A much better explanation, however. History before Metaphysics.

[Martin Klatt]

. . .

[Giuseppe]

Without offence, but the your solutions seem absolutely pathetic to me.

While Martin is on a good ground but he should recognize still the right weight of the threat of Gnostic haters of YHWH in the time of Mark, I should condemn a priori the hypothesis of a "Roman Conspiracy to invent Jesus". It is a 100% American idea. It is highly regrettable the fact that while in Europe (especially in France among anti-clerical Rationalists) the value of demiurgist gnosis is recognized fully in the construction of the Gospel Jesus, the Americans waste a lot of time in considering the hypothesis of a Roman involvement in the construction of the myth. Pliny the Younger is evidence that the Romans feared the Christians, especially when they confused them with the riotous Chrestiani. How could the Romans invent what they feared prima facie (I.e. the only name of Christus/Chrestus)?

It is regrettable that even Bob Price talks in positive terms about the Roman hypothesis.

[Martin Klatt]

. . .

[Giuseppe]

Your ramble about Roman conspiracies puzzles me completely, I hope you didn't put it in your mind I have anything to do with that.

The reference was about Charles, indeed, not about you.

Though 99% of it is completely off the rock, the occasional hit still inspires me.

Idem for me when I read your posts.

[Giuseppe]

It is too much evident that Mark has left not explained why the people around are surprised, unless the only reason for their surprise is the not arrival of Elijah, but the not arrival of Elijah is too much evident a clumsy way to eclipse what was in Cdn: the disappearance of Jesus from the cross:

Cdn	Mark
Jesus invokes the Father	Jesus invokes YHWH
people think he is a man	people think he invokes Elijah
but Jesus disappears	but Elijah doesn't come
surprise of the people around	surprise of the people around

[Martin Klatt]

. . .

[Giuseppe]

Sorry to disappoint you Giuseppe, but after reading Mark on your latest parallel there can only be a negative verdict:
Crooked parallel Joe, there is no amazement or surprise in Mark in this section. Check it again. It's not there.

A very easy confutation of the your claim:

And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, saw how he died, he said, “Surely this man was the Son of God!”

40 Some women were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joseph,[d] and Salome. 41 In Galilee these women had followed him and cared for his needs. Many other women who had come up with him to Jerusalem were also there.


42 It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, 43 Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. 44 Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died.

Hence you can see how much clumsy is Mark: he would like to have both:

• the surprise of the people around

• a stupid reason to be surprised: the rapid death of Jesus!

...When really we can infer the real reason of the surprise:
the disappearance of Jesus from the cross in the Earliest Gospel: Cdn.