Gospel of Thomas? Pre or Post Synoptics?

[neilgodfrey]

"blessed the womb that bore you and breasts that fed you."

The translations all say "Blessed are the womb". Does anyone know the significance of the plural verb here?

(I am wondering if it might affect broader interpretations, since we have "the bloods (pl) of Abel" crying out in Genesis, which some interpreters take to mean the future generations of Abel who failed to come into existence. The difference between a plural and a singular can sometimes point to the difference between a literal and symbolic meaning. But I have no idea what those with the skills say about the plural verb in Thomas 79a.

[PhilosopherJay]

Hi Bernard,

Yes, 24, 28 and 37 are puzzling:

24. His disciples said, "Show us the place where you are, for we must seek it."

28. Jesus said, "I took my stand in the midst of the world, and in flesh I appeared to them. I found them all drunk, and I did not find any of them thirsty. My soul ached for the children of humanity, because they are blind in their hearts and do not see, for they came into the world empty, and they also seek to depart from the world empty.

37. His disciples said, "When will you appear to us, and when will we see you?"

also:

77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

and

91. They said to him, "Tell us who you are so that we may believe in you."

He said to them, "You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you do not know how to examine the present moment."

Puzzling.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Is there any reason to assume that in the Gospel of Thomas the Jesus who is speaking is in flesh and blood as in the canonical gospels rather than a divine figure appearing to deliver his secret wisdom from heaven?

In gThomas,
6, 12, 18, 20, 37, 43, 51, 52, 53 & 99 have the disciples addressing Jesus.
21 has Mary addressing Jesus.
79 has "a woman in the crowd" addressing Jesus.
In 100 "they show Jesus a gold coin"
in 104 "they said to Jesus"

However 24, 28 & 37 are puzzling, but the author avoided to mention heaven as origin, destination or present location for Jesus.

Cordially, Bernard

[toejam]

I think the whole point of the Gospel of Thomas is to be vague and mysterious, to let the hearer fill in the blanks in his/her own head. It's about creating the illusion of substance. Kind of like a pseudo-intellectualism. It does this by imitating the (becoming-authoratative) 'voice' of the Synoptic Jesus. To quote Goodacre:

"The Gospel of Thomas's genius is that it conveys its radical difference from the Synoptic Gospels by hiding its theology in words and images it derives from them." (p.192)

[MrMacSon]

I think the whole point of the Gospel of Thomas is to be vague and mysterious, to let the hearer fill in the blanks in his/her own head. It's about creating the illusion of substance. Kind of like a pseudo-intellectualism. It does this by imitating the (becoming-authoratative) 'voice' of the Synoptic Jesus. To quote Goodacre:

"The Gospel of Thomas's genius is that it conveys its radical difference from the Synoptic Gospels by hiding its theology in words and images it derives from them." (p.192)

I think that it's over-reaching to give credence to the intentions of the Gospel of Thomas's author/s, or its meaning/point, without knowing the context in which it was written, and without knowing its context in relation to the Synoptics.

[Bernard Muller]

The translations all say "Blessed are the womb". Does anyone know the significance of the plural verb here?

Not all translations have the plural.
But if they do, the "are" would refer to the womb AND the breasts. Simple grammar.
I do not know what the coptic text has.

Cordially, Bernard

[Bernard Muller]

"The Gospel of Thomas's genius is that it conveys its radical difference from the Synoptic Gospels by hiding its theology in words and images it derives from them." (p.192)

I do not agree with that. The theology is not declared clear-cut in gThomas but it is implied. Sometimes the theology of gThomas is inferred by modifying sayings from the synoptic gospels; other times by sayings unique to the gospel.
Cordially, Bernard

[Bernard Muller]

Hi Jay,

24. His disciples said, "Show us the place where you are, for we must seek it."

the rest of the saying is:
He said to them: He who has ears, let him hear! There is light within a man of light, and he lights the whole world. If he does not shine, there is darkness.
It looks to me, in accordance with other Thomassan sayings, the place to seek is inside oneself, as long as you are enlightened (realized eschatology).

28. Jesus said, "I took my stand in the midst of the world, and in flesh I appeared to them. I found them all drunk, and I did not find any of them thirsty. My soul ached for the children of humanity, because they are blind in their hearts and do not see, for they came into the world empty, and they also seek to depart from the world empty.

It seems, in the mind of the author, Jesus would have made this statement at the end of his ministry, reflecting to the near past, that is most of his ministry on earth.

37. His disciples said, "When will you appear to us, and when will we see you?"

The rest of the saying (from the Greek version):
He said, "When you strip naked without being ashamed, and
take your garments and put them under your feet like little
children and tread upon them, then you will see the child of the
Living, and you will not be afraid."
The author is thinking about the future, after Jesus' departure. It is rather awkward because Jesus is evidently appearing to the disciples at the time of the Q & A.
Jesus' answer is rather vague. Certainly the word "heaven" does not appear. It seems that childish innocence is the prerequisite to "see" Jesus after his departure.

also:
77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.
Split a piece of wood; I am there.
Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

My opinion: It says Jesus is omnipresent (just like God!). Again no mention of heaven.

and
91. They said to him, "Tell us who you are so that we may believe in you."
He said to them, "You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you do not know how to examine the present moment."

Again, very vague answer. In fact, it has Jesus not saying who he is.

Cordially, Bernard

[PhilosopherJay]

Hi Bernard,

I am wondering how people can think that Paul's epistles are pre-gospel because they show virtually no knowledge of the gospels and treat Jesus as a God, and still think that the Gospel of Thomas is post NT gospels when, just like Paul's writings, they show virtually no knowledge of the gospels and treat Jesus as a God. This seems inconsistent to me. If the Gospel of Thomas had been included in the NT, who would not say that it was more primitive and earlier than the Gospel of Mark?

The idea that Jesus doesn't describe himself in heaven, does not mean that he is not a God. Apollo is not on Mount Olympus in the Homeric Hymn to Pythian Apollo when he speaks with the Cretans:

(ll. 524-525) But their spirit was stirred in their dear breasts,
and the master of the Cretans asked him, saying:


(ll. 526-530) `Lord, since you have brought us here far from our
dear ones and our fatherland, -- for so it seemed good to your
heart, -- tell us now how we shall live. That we would know of
you. This land is not to be desired either for vineyards or for
pastures so that we can live well thereon and also minister to
men.'


(ll. 531-544) Then Apollo, the son of Zeus, smiled upon them and
said: `Foolish mortals and poor drudges are you, that you seek
cares and hard toils and straits! Easily will I tell you a word
and set it in your hearts. Though each one of you with knife in
hand should slaughter sheep continually, yet would you always
have abundant store, even all that the glorious tribes of men
bring here for me. But guard you my temple and receive the
tribes of men that gather to this place, and especially show
mortal men my will, and do you keep righteousness in your heart.
But if any shall be disobedient and pay no heed to my warning, of
if there shall be any idle word or deed and outrage as is common
among mortal men, then other men shall be your masters and with a
strong hand shall make you subject for ever. All has been told
you: do you keep it in your heart.'

The statement at the beginning of the Gospel "These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded." can be considered as additional sayings to the Gospels if we consider that the author is trying to say that Jesus was alive when they were recorded. However, the term "Living Jesus" echoes the phrase "Living God". It does not say these are the words of Jesus when he was alive on Earth. There is nothing to suggest that the author ever knew anything about a human Jesus or anything that a human Jesus did.
The disciples are all wondering who and what Jesus is and where he comes from.

One more thought from this saying:

16. Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.

For there will be five in a house: there'll be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father, and they will stand alone."

Who is Jesus planning to make war against? The gospel writers portray a mainly pacifist Jesus. This really does not fit the ideology of any mystical group from the Second century. It does fit the ideology of Jewish Zealots prior to the Jewish-Roman War.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

[outhouse]

One point needs to be kept in mind, I think, when evaluating arguments for a separate tradition being the basis of somewhat similar texts, and that is that studies in intertextuality (e.g. by Thomas Brodie and others) show that ancient authors did re-write, rephrase, give new meanings to, previous texts. Differences therefore do not by any means necessarily point to differences of traditions. It may even be impossible to argue definitively about the Gospel of Thomas till more evidence surfaces.

Bingo.


Many of the parables attributes here, could very well go back to JtB or any typical Galilean teacher.


In context we are dealing with sayings from a time period, more so then a collection of sayings from "A" person.


There would have to be traditions Pre and Post Synoptics adapted to meet the needs of the movement. There is a clear track record of these authors doing just that.

[outhouse]

I think the whole point of the Gospel of Thomas is to be vague and mysterious, to let the hearer fill in the blanks in his/her own head. It's about creating the illusion of substance. Kind of like a pseudo-intellectualism.

As do many parables from this time period in Judaism.