"Vinegar on a Sponge, on a Hyssop Stick..."

[Charles Wilson]

1. For some reason, Giuseppe doesn't appreciate my commentary on his works so I want to summarize a different, Non-Gnostic view of the Vinegar-on-a-Sponge-on-a-Hyssop-Stick Passages. Nothing really new here but it does point away from Metaphysics towards a more Historical View.

Your Mileage May Vary.

2. Matthew 27: 48 (RSV):

[48] And one of them at once ran and took a sponge, filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave it to him to drink.

Mark 15: 36 (RSV):

[36] And one ran and, filling a sponge full of vinegar, put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink, saying, "Wait, let us see whether Eli'jah will come to take him down."

Luke 23: 36 - 38 (RSV):

[36] The soldiers also mocked him, coming up and offering him vinegar,
[37] and saying, "If you are the King of the Jews, save yourself!"
[38] There was also an inscription over him, "This is the King of the Jews."

***
John 19: 20 (RSV):

[29] A bowl full of vinegar stood there; so they put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth.

All different in the surrounding material but notice Luke for a moment. The soldiers mock him and there is not the "Call for Elijah", a dead Prophet. I have already given an Analysis for this part - the call for Elijah is the Marker for the End of the Interregnum when the Germans, separated from all others and sensing death facing the Legions in Battle Array, call for Mucianus, the Emperor and the gods in a Panic until Mucianus tells them that they are soldiers under the same Vow, supporting the same Emperor (Now Vespasian). See Tacitus, Histories, Book 4. This is not seen in Luke at this verse.

Again, If John "Corrects" Mark and the Synoptics, what do we find in John's different telling of the Vinegar Story that is in all 4 Gospels?

A. In the Synoptics, the vinegar is "offered". Matthew's and Mark's description is somewhat bland and somewhat passive - "He came over to the house and we gave him an iced tea to drink".

"Only, this guy is, like, you know, being crucified and stuff."

B. Luke appears to be hiding more than even Mark and Matthew. The soldiers simply offer him vinegar. The possibility is presented that the soldiers could simply have handed him a cup or presented it in some other manner, we simply don't know.

C. John presents a more detailed - and stark - Set of Details: "...they put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth."

This is a Homosexual Motif and is not to be considered as an Act of the Son of God. Unless...the Tableau presented is part of a larger Symbolic Tale. Not Gnostic. Not Metaphysical. Historical.

Suetonius, 12 Caesars, "Vitellius":

"Beginning in this way, he [Vitellius] regulated the greater part of his rule wholly according to the advice and whims of the commonest of actors and chariot-drivers, and in particular of his freedman Asiaticus. This fellow had immoral relations with Vitellius in his youth, but later grew weary of him and ran away. When Vitellius came upon him selling posca (18) at Puteoli, he put him in irons, but at once freed him again and made him his favourite..."

Note 18: "A drink made of sour wine or vinegar mixed with water"

John gives the part of the Story the Synoptics hide:

John 20: 6 - 7 (RSV):

[6] Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; he saw the linen cloths lying,
[7] and the napkin, which had been on his head, not lying with the linen cloths but rolled up in a place by itself.

The head napkin is a Latin Loan Word, "Soudarian" (Atwill). Thus, Galba:

Suetonius 12 Caesars, Galba:

" He was killed beside the Lake of Curtius and was left lying just as he was, until a common soldier, returning from a distribution of grain, threw down his load and cut off the head...From these it was bought by a freedman of Patrobius Neronianus for a hundred pieces of gold and thrown aside in the place where his patron had been executed by Galba's order. At last, however, his steward Argivus consigned it to the tomb with the rest of the body in Galba's private gardens on the Aurelian Road.

Otho:

John 19: 34 (RSV):

[34] But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water.

Plutarch: Life of Otho:

About the same time also happened a skirmish on the Po [River]. As Caecina was laying a bridge over it, Otho's men attacked him, and tried to prevent it. And when they did not succeed, on their putting into their boats torchwood, with a quantity of sulphur and pitch, the wind on the river suddenly caught their material that they had prepared against the enemy, and blew it into a light. First came smoke, and then a clear flame, and the men, getting into great confusion and jumping overboard, upset the boats, and put themselves ludicrously at the mercy of their enemies. Also the Germans attacked Otho's gladiators upon a small island in the river, routed them, and killed a good many.
***
"After that, [Otho,] quenching his thirst with a draught of cold water, he caught up two daggers, and having tried the point of both of them, put one under his pillow. Then closing the doors, he slept very soundly. When he at last woke up at about daylight, he stabbed himself with a single stroke under the left breast; and now concealing the wound, and now showing it to those who rushed in at his first groan, he breathed his last and was hastily buried (for such were his orders) in the thirty-eighth year of his age and on the ninety-fifth day of his reign.

Then Vitellius. I believe Vitellius is the Magician Simon Magus. Nero was another Magician and they are both represented in the Stories of the Gospels and Acts. The Story of the Empty Tomb, examined elsewhere on the Site is Comedy on the Death of Otho and Search for Verginius Rufus, who high-tailed it out the back door. The Monument at Brixellum is empty, the House of Rufus is empty. Whom will the Legions give Allegiance to?

Enter the Flavians. Otho was the last Emperor that Vespasian swore allegiance to. Vitellius was viscerally hated. Enter Vespasian.
***
I appreciate what Giuseppe is trying to accomplish, I really do. It is simply that before we can drop a load of Metaphysics onto the History ("This stuff is piled on really thick. We're gonna have to use a Heidegger...") , we should establish a viable Historical Foundation to see how that was manipulated.

First.

CW

[GakuseiDon]

This is total speculation(!) based on a coincidence, but the coincidence is there. I remember reading awhile ago about how Romans cleaned their behinds after using public toilets in ancient days. From here:
https://www.sapiens.org/column/curiosit ... bathrooms/

A tersorium is an ingenious little device made by attaching a natural sponge... to the end of a stick. Our ancient Roman would simply wipe him- or herself, rinse the tersorium in whatever was available (running water and/or a bucket of vinegar or salt water), and leave it for the next person to use.

I wonder if there is symbolism in the story after all? I can't imagine what it might be, and I can't think of any speculative meaning that could be politely brought up on this board. But it is interesting.

[davidlau17]

This is total speculation(!) based on a coincidence, but the coincidence is there. I remember reading awhile ago about how Romans cleaned their behinds after using public toilets in ancient days. From here:
https://www.sapiens.org/column/curiosit ... bathrooms/

A tersorium is an ingenious little device made by attaching a natural sponge... to the end of a stick. Our ancient Roman would simply wipe him- or herself, rinse the tersorium in whatever was available (running water and/or a bucket of vinegar or salt water), and leave it for the next person to use.

I wonder if there is symbolism in the story after all? I can't imagine what it might be, and I can't think of any speculative meaning that could be politely brought up on this board. But it is interesting.

Crude, but interesting. If this has any symbolic meaning whatsoever, maybe it has something to do with Jesus' remark that nothing that enters the body of a man can defile him. Best I can think of.

[Charles Wilson]

Thank you both for your comments.

I've either been struck with the most severe case of Confirmation Bias or there may be something there. Find a Thesis that is consistent and accounts for (most) all of the NT material and no one can totally refute you. The problem is in finding people who will look at the totality of the Thesis. I don't think it is all coincidental and if there are many supports for the Roman Thesis, then it should be considered, even as Gnosticism is considered. Again, however, it still should be History before Metaphysics.

Moving on, GakuseiDon has hit on something, I believe. This is one of the problems. If there was a "Jesus, Son-of-God" then it is not polite in any sense to bring up "Butt Mops" brought to Jesus' mouth. HOWEVER, the fate of the crucified was not a kind one and if there are Historical Features to this Tale, being beaten, spit on, hit in the nuts by rocks and sticks, or whatever, it would be only a short step to a slightly cynical "Clean-Up" for the New Religion - "Jesus was offered a drink of vinegar..." Good pick-up, GD.

Similarly, davidlau17 has a good possible example. It would be the height of savage cynicism to offer one the "Sayings of Jesus" literally "in his face". On the view that a crucified person is the lowest of the low and worthy to be hated and abused, a Rebel, an Insurrectionist would suffer through abuses such as this. The Roman Guards are there for reason and it would not be such a good work detail to be there for hours while the people watching want to speed up the death and you have to put up with this guy dying a horrible death for hours.

I always thought that the Vitellius story of Asiaticus selling Posca in a bazaar was probably the most savage Satire in the NT. I can easily see that there is even more to it than that.

Thnx again,

CW

[GakuseiDon]

Moving on, GakuseiDon has hit on something, I believe.

Thanks, but I don't think it is anything other than coincidence. Still, it might provide a data point for someone to use in building a case towards some view of the past. I was simply struck by the similarity.

[Geocalyx]

But it's much too elaborate to be coincidental. What's up with that, anyway? Was it an ancient method to facilitate the death of crucified people in orderly fashion or something? Because really, I don't believe I've seen gall & vinegar in a sponge on a stick mentioned anyplace else but floor wiping recipes. In this context, it is one last (Roman!) insult to Jesus - not only had he been the King of Jews and the son of God, he had also been a pottymouth... and as such even fits the gospel narratives. (There's no need to look for symbolic cleaning of the world for a new religion, when the saying "go wash your mouth with soap" is right there, as are the sufferings and insults the Son reportedly endured.)

Anyway, nice catch.

[Charles Wilson]

Aaaaaaaah, just take the compliment, GakuseiDon.

Still, it might provide a data point for someone to use in building a case towards some view of the past.

One place to start would be the Datum found only in John, one time: The sponge is placed on "Hyssop".

Brittanica, "Hyssop":

"Ezov, the hyssop of the Bible, was historically used in ritual cleansing of lepers but is not Hyssopus officinalis, which is alien to Palestine; it may have been a species of caper or savory."

In this presentation in John, what would have been the purpose of naming the type of stick used? Teeple identifies this as coming from the Source Writer. Since this is a Tableau for effect, what would this seemingly superfluous datum indicate? This is in lead-up to the Empty Tomb and in John this is moment of identification of the end of the Julio-Claudians and the Ascension of Vespasian.

"Hyssop" is indeed an alien plant.

CW

[Martin Klatt]

. . .

[davidlau17]

Aaaaaaaah, just take the compliment, GakuseiDon.

Still, it might provide a data point for someone to use in building a case towards some view of the past.

One place to start would be the Datum found only in John, one time: The sponge is placed on "Hyssop".

Brittanica, "Hyssop":

"Ezov, the hyssop of the Bible, was historically used in ritual cleansing of lepers but is not Hyssopus officinalis, which is alien to Palestine; it may have been a species of caper or savory."

In this presentation in John, what would have been the purpose of naming the type of stick used? Teeple identifies this as coming from the Source Writer. Since this is a Tableau for effect, what would this seemingly superfluous datum indicate? This is in lead-up to the Empty Tomb and in John this is moment of identification of the end of the Julio-Claudians and the Ascension of Vespasian.

"Hyssop" is indeed an alien plant.

CW

The hyssop plant originates from Egypt. In Exodus, it is the plant used by the Israelites to mark their doors with blood during the time of passover.

In Wars of the Jews (6.14.6), Josephus tells us a story about a 'Mary of Bethezob, beyond the Jordan'. Beth-ezob he translates as "House of Hyssop" (Beth: House, Ezob: Hyssop). Starving during a famine, Mary kills and eats half of her own infant son, and offers the other half as a sacrifice to others.

Also, Porphyry of Tyre remarked that Serapeum priests in Egypt used hyssop to purify food: "For it is said, that hyssop very much purifies the power of bread." http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefat ... _book4.htm

Of course, I can't be sure if any of this is relevant to the "hyssop stick" in John, but it might not be coincidental that the first two 'hyssop stories' are remarkably morbid in nature - while it also appears that the plant was used in certain purgation rituals of the 1st century.

[Charles Wilson]

There may be more Symbolism than we can sort through. Thanks to all so far. Each response deserves examination and I may do just that. First, however:

Suetonius, 12 Caesars, "Vitellius":

"Beginning in this way, he [Vitellius] regulated the greater part of his rule wholly according to the advice and whims of the commonest of actors and chariot-drivers, and in particular of his freedman Asiaticus. This fellow had immoral relations with Vitellius in his youth, but later grew weary of him and ran away. When Vitellius came upon him selling posca at Puteoli, he put him in irons, but at once freed him again and made him his favourite. His vexation was renewed by the man's excessive insolence and thievishness, and he sold him to an itinerant keeper of gladiators. When, however, he was once reserved for the end of a gladiatorial show, Vitellius suddenly spirited him away, and finally on getting his province set him free. On the first day of his reign he presented him with the golden ring at a banquet, although in the morning, when there was a general demand that Asiaticus be given that honour, he had deprecated in the strongest terms such a blot on the equestrian order."

This is the complete Section for the appearance of this particular Asiaticus in 12 Caesars. For a Kwik Kwote, consider for a moment this Wiki-P entry:

"The official dress of equestrians was the tunica angusticlavia (narrow-striped tunic), worn underneath the toga, in such a manner that the stripe over the right shoulder was visible (as opposed to the broad stripe worn by senators.) equites bore the title eques Romanus, were entitled to wear an anulus aureus (gold ring) on their left hand, and, from 67 BC, enjoyed privileged seats at games and public functions (just behind those reserved for senators)

I assume that you just don't start dickin' around with the Equestrian Order as Vitellius has done. He realizes this but will eventually let his Libertinage take over completely. From earlier in Suetonius' Commentary and the consideration of Omens:

"Then hearing of the murder of Galba, he settled affairs in Germany and made two divisions of his forces, one to send on against Otho, and the other to lead in person. The former was greeted with a lucky omen at the start, for an eagle suddenly flew towards them from the right and after hovering about the standards, slowly preceded their line of march. But, on the contrary, when he himself began his advance, the equestrian statues which were being set up everywhere in his honour on a sudden all collapsed with broken legs, and the laurel crown which he had put on with due ceremony fell into a running stream. Later, as he was sitting in judgment on the tribunal at Vienna, a cock perched on his shoulder and then on his head. And the outcome corresponded with these omens; for he was not by his own efforts able to retain the power which his lieutenants secured for him..."

Which leads us to Posca, 'The Drink of the Legions". Martin appears to be correct in his reading: The identification is not "...sponge on a hyssop stick..." but "...they put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth..." BTW, it would be hard to imagine that this Passage would be from a much older Aramaic Source Document. The over-arching intent should have been from a Roman Historical Source, obliterating any possible other Source. This is why it is Political to Roman Sensibilities.

https://www.romae-vitam.com/roman-posca.html
https://www.romanobritain.org/2-arl_foo ... -posca.php

Does "Sponge-on-Hyssop" function as an Identifier for a Label for a Type of Posca Recipe? If so then this reflects the Political Tension of the Roman Army giving Pay-Back to the deluded Vitellius:

Acts 8: 18 - 23 (RSV):

[18] Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,
[19] saying, "Give me also this power, that any one on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
[20] But Peter said to him, "Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!
[21] You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.
[22] Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.
[23] For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity."

"For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity." The Homosexual Motif appears to me to be properly applied. Vitellius, on the one hand is given the Drink of the Legions by the Soldiers in a derisive display of hatred at the cross [in Symbolic Form]. It also functions as a last Insult for the Julio-Claudians, who are shown the door after abusing the Honor and Duty of the Equestrian Order. It could very easily have been seen Symbolically as a swab across the face with a butt-mop.

But it's much too elaborate to be coincidental

I agree.

Nice, everyone. More later.

CW