"Vinegar on a Sponge, on a Hyssop Stick..."

[Charles Wilson]

Brittanica, "Hyssop":Ezov, the hyssop of the Bible, was historically used in ritual cleansing of lepers but is not Hyssopus officinalis, which is alien to Palestine; it may have been a species of caper or savory.

Note: "Ezob" = "Ezov".

In Wars of the Jews (6.14.6), Josephus tells us a story about a 'Mary of Bethezob, beyond the Jordan'. Beth-ezob he translates as "House of Hyssop" (Beth: House, Ezob: Hyssop). Starving during a famine, Mary kills and eats half of her own infant son, and offers the other half as a sacrifice to others.

At the risk of sending any number of our Regulars to the ER for Emergency Psych Interventions*, let me assure you that I am familiar with "Cannibal Mary", from Joe Atwill's Caesar's Messiah. In fact, I'm gonna have to review Joe's treatment of Josephus here to attempt to review the Link(s) easily seen. It will involve some serious Translations and Cross-Mappings from Atwill's Parallel-o-Mania to the Normal, Serious and Measured Skollerly work that we Skollers always manufacture. There may even be some Good Stuff there but...I'll never tell nobody.

Thnx.

CW

* See, for ex., Mark Vonnegut, The Eden Express (Paraph.): "Thorazine makes thinking a losing proposition."

[Charles Wilson]

Joseph Atwill, Caesar's Messiah, ISBN-10: 1461096405, ISBN-13: 978-1461096405:

"Josephus has, thus, described a Mary who fulfilled the prophecy made for the Mary in the New Testament, in that she was "pierced through the heart." As this Mary is of the "House of Hyssop" and her son is a "sacrifice" who was "roasted" and his flesh was eaten, he can certainly be likened to a human Passover lamb, like the one established in the New Testament. Josephus' use of the word "splanchon" also builds on this theme — "splanchon" being the Greek word that was used to describe those parts of a sacrificed animal reserved to be eaten by sacrificers at the beginning of their feast. Yet another detail recorded by Josephus also links this passage to the New Testament. Josephus gives the name of Mary's father as Eleazar, which in Greek is Lazarus, the name of the individual whom Jesus raised from the dead.
***
"If Josephus was lampooning Jesus, what was his purpose? An obvious explanation is that he wrote the passage to amuse a group on whom the joke would not be lost: he would have created it to be enjoyed by the Flavians and their inner circle."

CW

[davidlau17]

Eusebius' EH led me to Mary the cannibal, actually. Interestingly enough, he also saw parallels. Though he only uses it to connect instances of Jesus saying "women, do not weep for me, weep for your children" or "alas for those women who have a child nursing at the breast is in those days" to Jerusalem's destruction, thus 'foreseeing' one of Josephus' ubiquitous calamities for the Jews.

I've never read Atwill's Caesar's Messiah, though I did read a few reviews about it a few years ago. It sounds as though he's attempting to link Josephus' gruesome tale to the Eucharist. I thought he would go on to suggest that was the origin of the Eucharist, but from what you've posted, it appears Atwill thinks it's just an example of Josephus' macabre (sadistic?) sense of humor. An obscure parody on Christianity.

[Charles Wilson]

1. Atwill, CM, Intro, p. 4-6:

"Following the war, the Flavians shared control over this region between Egypt and Syria with two families of powerful Hellenized Jews: the Herods and the Alexanders...Though the three families had been able to put down the revolt, they still faced a potential threat. Many Jews continued to believe that God would send a Messiah, a son of David, who would lead them against the enemies of Judea.Though the Flavians, Herods, and Alexanders had ended the Jewish revolt, the families had not destroyed the messianic religion of the Jewish rebels. The families needed to find a way to prevent the Zealots from inspiring future uprisings through their belief in a coming warrior Messiah.

"Then someone from within this circle had an inspiration, one that changed history. The way to tame messianic Judaism would be to simply transform it into a religion that would cooperate with the Roman Empire. To achieve this goal would require a new type of messianic literature. Thus, what what we know as the Christian Gospels were created..."

This is Joe Atwill's Thesis in a nutshell and I find Atwill very convincing. Buy the book and read it for yourself. Have your Shrink on Speed-Dial. Atwill drives many crazy with his Treatment of Statistics and his view that most if not all of the Gospels are intricate Puzzles to be solved. I have no such problems with these Objections, about which more in a moment.

2. As near as I can figure, the Eucharist came from Dio, Epitome 64:

"Now they would all shout together on one side the name of Vespasian and on the other side that of Vitellius, and they would challenge each other in turn, indulging in abuse or in praise of the one leader or the other. Again one soldier would have a private conversation with an opponent: "Comrade, fellow-citizen, what are we doing? Why are we fighting? Come over to my side." "No, indeed! You come to my side." 3 But what is there surprising about this, considering that when the women of the city in the course of the night brought food and drink to give to the soldiers of Vitellius, the latter, after eating and drinking themselves, passed the supplies on to their antagonists? One of them would call out the name of his adversary (for they practically all knew one another and were well acquainted) and would say: "Comrade, take and eat this; I give you, not a sword, but bread. Take and drink this; I hold out to you, not a shield, but a cup. Thus, whether you kill me or I you, we shall quit life more comfortably, and the hand that slays will not be feeble and nerveless, whether it be yours that smites me or mine that smites you. For these are the meats of consecration that Vitellius and Vespasian give us while we are yet alive, in order that they may offer us as a sacrifice to the dead slain long since." "

3. About 14/15 years ago, I read Maccoby's great book, The Mythmaker. Maccoby Deconstructed "Paul" as I had never seen. I wondered: "If Paul was a Liar, Cheat and Thief, how could he have accomplished what he supposedly did?". Did he even exist? I began looking at Mark and found that the Stories could be read with a different Intentionality - "What happens when you read the Stories without the Metaphysics?". For example, "Jesus" heals a man with a withered hand and the Herodians want to kill him? Wha...?!??

Further, "Jesus' " own words border on meaninglessness with the Tableau that is presented:

Mark 3: 4 (RSV):

[4] And he said to them, "Is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?" But they were silent.

For a long time, I had no idea what the meaning of this Statement was. All I knew was, Jesus was known and, echoing Joseph Heller, Something Happened. They all appeared to be looking back in time to some event, some Sabbath. What would healing a man with a withered hand have to do with Killing? The other "Early Mark Stories" read in the same manner. What was the Symbolism of, for instance, the Squall:

Mark 6: 48 - 49 (RSV):

[48] And he saw that they were making headway painfully, for the wind was against them. And about the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. He meant to pass by them,
[49] but when they saw him walking on the sea they thought it was a ghost, and cried out;

Wait...What?... "He meant to pass them by"... What? Pass who by? He saw the Boat and the Squall from land. He gets to the Boat and "...he meant to pass them by..."? The Disciples in the Boat thought it was a GHOST? How Un-Judaic! No, it appeared that something else, some other event was being recorded in this Passage.

Armed with my new found Ignorance, I looked for a "Biblical Board" and I found one. By this time, I had found an underlying sense of these Stories and almost each hour found something new to examine. It was the most amazing mental exercise of my life, day after day.

Joe Atwill was Posting about his book that had some astonishing material about the NT and what it was RILLY about. Cannibal Mary was an amazing Story, "Wait'll you see it". We began corresponding and soon I purchased CM. Suddenly, what I saw had a container to hold the apparently randomized "Miracle Stories". Joe has stated that his is "Forward Looking Typology" and mine is "Backward Looking Typology".

Joe looks at the Flavians and the Ascension of Vespasian, Titus and Domitian. I look back at a Set of Stories that go back to the Hasmoneans, Alexander Jannaeus and the Temple Priesthood (Mishmarot) from 1 Chronicles 24. The Priests all had Settlements assigned to them in Galilee. The important Mishmarot Priestly Groups were Jehoiarib, Bilgah and Immer. This History has been ignored.

"Immer" is very important. The Hebrew for "Immer" is exactly the same as for "Lamb" - "Immar" - and you can look it up. "Behold the Lamb of God". Bilgah and Immer were on Duty for Passover + the Feast in 4 BCE. It is trivially easy to compute but no one wants to verify the Tie-In.

"The Romans - The Flavians - did it". They took a Story of the Insurrection at the death of Herod and rewrote it for the Glory of the Flavians. The "Jesus" character is mostly written around Titus, the son - of Vespasian, the father. The Damantio'd Domitian was the "Holy Spirit". At some point, Titus is deified and identifiable in the Stories. At others, a rewrite of Alexander Jannaeus appears as do the Priests and the Hasmonean Dynasty. At the cross, as seen in John, Galba, Otho and Vitellius end the Julio-Claudian Pretenders and the Resurrected savior/god promises eternal life to all those loyal tax-paying Romans.

I cannot NOT see it. I have Joe Atwill to thank for a lot of this. Take what you will from it and leave the rest. The Roman Thesis is virtually complete, consistent and maps into a fully descriptive Set of Explanations. Historical. Not Metaphysical.

CW

[davidlau17]

1. Atwill, CM, Intro, p. 4-6:

"Following the war, the Flavians shared control over this region between Egypt and Syria with two families of powerful Hellenized Jews: the Herods and the Alexanders...Though the three families had been able to put down the revolt, they still faced a potential threat. Many Jews continued to believe that God would send a Messiah, a son of David, who would lead them against the enemies of Judea.Though the Flavians, Herods, and Alexanders had ended the Jewish revolt, the families had not destroyed the messianic religion of the Jewish rebels. The families needed to find a way to prevent the Zealots from inspiring future uprisings through their belief in a coming warrior Messiah.

"Then someone from within this circle had an inspiration, one that changed history. The way to tame messianic Judaism would be to simply transform it into a religion that would cooperate with the Roman Empire. To achieve this goal would require a new type of messianic literature. Thus, what what we know as the Christian Gospels were created..."

This is Joe Atwill's Thesis in a nutshell and I find Atwill very convincing. Buy the book and read it for yourself. Have your Shrink on Speed-Dial. Atwill drives many crazy with his Treatment of Statistics and his view that most if not all of the Gospels are intricate Puzzles to be solved. I have no such problems with these Objections, about which more in a moment.

Ha Yeah, like I said, I'd heard of Caesar's Messiah , and I've always been somewhat curious to read it, though it's difficult to find the time to do so. I had an idea that his thesis linked the Flavian Dynasty to the formation the New Testament. It sounds interesting - I'll definitely give it a look.

2. As near as I can figure, the Eucharist came from Dio, Epitome 64:

"Now they would all shout together on one side the name of Vespasian and on the other side that of Vitellius, and they would challenge each other in turn, indulging in abuse or in praise of the one leader or the other. Again one soldier would have a private conversation with an opponent: "Comrade, fellow-citizen, what are we doing? Why are we fighting? Come over to my side." "No, indeed! You come to my side." 3 But what is there surprising about this, considering that when the women of the city in the course of the night brought food and drink to give to the soldiers of Vitellius, the latter, after eating and drinking themselves, passed the supplies on to their antagonists? One of them would call out the name of his adversary (for they practically all knew one another and were well acquainted) and would say: "Comrade, take and eat this; I give you, not a sword, but bread. Take and drink this; I hold out to you, not a shield, but a cup. Thus, whether you kill me or I you, we shall quit life more comfortably, and the hand that slays will not be feeble and nerveless, whether it be yours that smites me or mine that smites you. For these are the meats of consecration that Vitellius and Vespasian give us while we are yet alive, in order that they may offer us as a sacrifice to the dead slain long since." "

Thanks, I wasn't aware of this.

Also, regarding the thread's main topic, I remember a passage from Tertellulian that likely confirms that the giving of vinegar(+bile?) via sponge via Hyssop stick was, at the very least, viewed as an unkind gesture rather than an act of compassion. The "gall" bit might also confirm its relation to Roman toilet practices.

Tertullian mocking 'Jewish slanders':

Tertullian, De Spetaculis 100.30: This is your carpenter's son, your harlot's son; your Sabbath-breaker, your Samaritan, your demon-possessed! This is he whom you bought from Judas. This is he who was struck with reeds and fists, dishonored with spittle, and given a draught of gall and vinegar! This is he whom his disciples have stolen secretly, that it may be said, 'He has risen', or the gardener abstracted that his lettuces might not be damaged by the crowds of visitors!

http://jewishchristianlit.com//Topics/J ... llian.html