Did Josephus describe the Titus conquest of Jerusalem as also a spiritual conquest/ascending?

[Giuseppe]

I submit the question to any reader of the forum.

I don't mean mere religious/political propaganda about Vespasian as the Messiah of an obscure oracle etc.

I mean precisely what I have written: are the gradual efforts (by Titus to conquer Jerusalem) also described by Josephus as spiritual efforts to ascend to a higher spiritual awareness?

Someway, when Josephus describes the inner conflicts inside Jerusalem, it seems that, by mere contrast, the unity of the Roman army works as the same unity of God against the "archontic" (and chaotic) disunity of the demons (=zealots in Jerusalem).

By conquering Jerusalem, Titus is himself "conquered" by the holy city insofar he reveals definitely himself as agent of God on earth etc.

Hence Jerusalem itself becomes a "conquering" entity. The city is "deified" to pose already, in Josephian propaganda, as a celestial Jerusalem. But only insofar Titus is going to free it from the Zealots.

[davidlau17]

I agree that Josephus meant to suggest that the conquering of Jerusalem served also as a spiritual ascension (or something along those lines). He certainly thought that divine providence was on the side of the Romans, at the very least.

And now I perceived innovations were already begun, and that there were a great many very much elevated in hopes of a revolt from the Romans. I therefore endeavored to put a stop to these tumultuous persons, and persuaded them to change their minds; and laid before their eyes against whom it was that they were going to fight, and told them that they were inferior to the Romans not only in martial skill, but also in good fortune; and desired them not rashly, and after the most foolish manner, to bring on the dangers of the most terrible mischiefs upon their country, upon their families, and upon themselves. And this I said with vehement exhortation, because I foresaw that the end of such a war would be most unfortunate to us. But I could not persuade them; for the madness of desperate men was quite too hard for me. (Vita, 17)

[Secret Alias]

It's common to describe accomplishments in sports the same way. No big deal.

[davidlau17]

It's common to describe accomplishments in sports the same way. No big deal.

Sure, but Josephus constantly refers to "God's divine intervention" or omens of some sort; it was of no small importance to him. His story of 'Jesus son of Ananus' (the many "woes to Jerusalem") is also probably relevant here, particularly where states that: "...as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man". (Wars, 6.20.8)

[GakuseiDon]

By conquering Jerusalem, Titus is himself "conquered" by the holy city insofar he reveals definitely himself as agent of God on earth etc.

Hence Jerusalem itself becomes a "conquering" entity. The city is "deified" to pose already, in Josephian propaganda, as a celestial Jerusalem. But only insofar Titus is going to free it from the Zealots.

Josephus writes how some saw and heard things at the Temple that implied God abandoning the Temple (Tacitus mentions this as well). Perhaps that might provide some support to your idea:
http://josephus.org/causeofDestruct.htm

Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again.

This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them....
...
Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."

[Secret Alias]

Sounds like a Christian wrote that

[GakuseiDon]

Sounds like a Christian wrote that

Actually, it looks to me like Josephus is hinting to his Roman audience that God has abandoned the Jews in favour of the Romans. If so, there is a parallel there with how Paul saw God had moved on from the Jews to embrace the Gentiles.

[Secret Alias]

Still find it hard to believe a Jew wrote that. We may give up believing in God but our hatred of "the man" never goes away

[davidlau17]

Still find it hard to believe a Jew wrote that. We may give up believing in God but our hatred of "the man" never goes away

Well you need to keep in mind that Josephus published all of his works (existing today, anyway) after he had long since left Judea, viewed as a traitor by many of his people. He was the darling of Vespasian, brought into the life of Roman luxury after flipping sides during the war. He was writing under the name Titus Flavius Josephus, not Joseph ben Matthias. It's tough to hate "the man", so to speak, if he treats you like a prince.

[Secret Alias]

Jewish people aren't loyal to 'their people' any more than any one else. As they used to say in antiquity it was a shared hatred of the human race (I am using their words not my own) that bound them together. I just can't see a Jew writing these words. The closest we might get is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Christiani. But even this doesn't approach what 'Joe' is claimed to have written. I remember an old Jewish man in Rio I met who told me that he hated Romanian Jewish survivors (or maybe it was Hungarian Jews) because they were 'pushy' - they survived the Holocaust by pushing others into the ovens before them. But again none of this approaches what Josephus is claimed to have written. I defy someone to provide a parallel example. An remember that Justus insinuates that Josephus continues to secretly back Jewish causes in Vita. It's bullshit. The most authentic Josephan text is Vita. The rest were reworked by (Christian) 'assistants'