Re: The Legion of Jesuses in Josephus
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:12 pm
Watch the universities end up teaching Giuseppe's theories as required reading ...
Investigating the roots of western civilization (ye olde BC&H forum of IIDB lives on...)
https://earlywritings.com/forum/
To begin with, as a Jewish Pharisee who wrote derisively about all other messiah claimants, Josephus would have been unlikely to believe Jesus to be the Christ. However, even if he did come to that belief, common sense would tell us that he would dedicate a heavy portion of Antiquities to his Messiah. Instead he casually and abruptly proclaims, "He was the Christ". The Testimonium Flavianum is one of the shortest chapters in his Antiquities; it consists of a grand total of 89 words.
The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea.
... a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus,
So Joshua/"Jesus" son of Nun took a book and wrote God's own declaration directly about "the Son of God", per Moses' instructions. It was as if Joshua/"Jesus" were directly expressing God's words. That is, it were as if Joshua/"Jesus" were God speaking.What, again, says Moses to Jesus (Joshua) the son of Nave, when he gave him this name, as being a prophet, with this view only, that all the people might hear that the Father would reveal all things concerning His Son Jesus to the son of Nave? This name then being given him when he sent him to spy out the land, he said, "Take a book into your hands, and write what the Lord declares, that the Son of God will in the last days cut off from the roots all the house of Amalek."
But for this theory to work, I think that one would better accept the explanation in Luke 1 that Yeshua is a name derived from Yesha (salvation).Behold, the Lord hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation (Yesha/ישע) cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
My view is that, like the early Christians, Josephus did not see Daniel 9 as labeling Vespasian the Jewish Messianic Son of David. Rather, the oracle of Daniel 9 denoted the soldiers of Vespasian as the people of the prince (future emperor Vespasian) to come who would destroy the Temple. ie. While the "anointed Prince" in the middle of the prophecy might refer to the Messiah, the "prince" at the end of the prophecy was a prince/ruler like Vespasian. in Josephus' account, Vespasian's attack IIRC is also considered to cut off sacrifices for 3 1/2 years in keeping with the prince's stopping of sacrifices for 3 1/2 years in Daniel 9.
I think that Josephus did dedicate more portions of the Antiquities than the TF and James' story to Jesus, but he did so cryptically, and this explains at least some of the Jesus references that you are asking about. He wrote cryptically about it because he was low-key in his Christianity due to Rome's policies on Christians. Plus, his main purpose was Jewish national history, rather than unveiling the prophecies. He actually doesn't unveil much explicitly about the Messianic prophecies, although he does allude to Daniel's prophecies' explanations To give a modern comparison, there are people with certain views who a government and a country's establishment would consider radical and look down on, and so in their well known writings they don't say much about it explicitly.davidlau17 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:44 pm To begin with, as a Jewish Pharisee who wrote derisively about all other messiah claimants, Josephus would have been unlikely to believe Jesus to be the Christ. However, even if he did come to that belief, common sense would tell us that he would dedicate a heavy portion of Antiquities to his Messiah. Instead he casually and abruptly proclaims, "He was the Christ".
Why not?
Right. Onias and Menelaus came to my mind when I wrote that.Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:48 amWhy not?
After the Maccabean period we have Jewish high priests named Aristobulus, Alexander, Antigonus, and Theophilus: all Greek names.
Theophilus was from century I.rakovsky wrote: ↑Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:41 amRight. Onias and Menelaus came to my mind when I wrote that.Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:48 amWhy not?
After the Maccabean period we have Jewish high priests named Aristobulus, Alexander, Antigonus, and Theophilus: all Greek names.
The position of high priest was a very important semi political one, and the contenders for it in the Maccabean period and as a consequence afterwards were divided into camps and cultural orientations (eg. pro-Egyptian, pro-Seleucid, etc.). The line of high priests in the first century I think tended to have Jewish names (Ananias, Caiaphas).
What is its meaning, in your opinion? The comparison on this thread has been to a Latin term: damnatio, not to a Greek one. Is this a Hebrew name + a Greek surname derived from a Latin root? Greek terms using the stem δαμν- tend to bear meanings having to do with subduing people or animals.Jesus Ben Damnaeus uses a Jewish first name too. But his father is using a Greek name. If that was all there was to it, I wouldn't find it significant. It's the fact that he uses Damnaeus that sounds weird to me because of its meaning.
It appears to have been exceedingly rare. This may be its only known occurrence.I doubt that even such a Greek name was common.
It means "damned" only if it is a Latin name, not a Greek name.It seems pretty weird for a name ("Damned"?), it must be a pretty rare name, and it's a Greek name.
I would be forced to speculate. In case it's a literary device, then it reminds me of the names Fulvia and Decius Mundus in Josephus' two stories following the "Testimonium". I don't think that those were real names of real people, but rather that they each refer to the names of people in the other's story. I guess that "Fulvia" is a homophonic reference to the "Vulva", as the preceding story involves the female protagonist having sex. But I am convinced that Decius Mundus (Tenth World) is a reference to tithing the nations, as the following story involves tithing gentiles, and tithing refers to taking a tenth.
If you want, I could get explain the allegory about Simon more.Thus did God bring this man to be punished for what bitter and savage tyranny he had exercised against his countrymen by those who were his worst enemies; and this while he was not subdued by violence, but voluntarily delivered himself up to them to be punished, and that on the very same account that he had laid false accusations against many Jews, as if they were falling away to the Romans, and had barbarously slain them; for wicked actions do not escape the Divine anger, nor is justice too weak to punish offenders, but in time overtakes those that transgress its laws, and inflicts its punishments upon the wicked in a manner, so much more severe, as they expected to escape it on account of their not being punished immediately.