Skeptical schoalrs argue that because Mark's gospel ends with no sightings of the resin Jesus Mark must have made up the empty tomb.
The Resin Jesus, of course, is a phenomenon which only occurs when Easter falls on 4/20. On these rare days, it is appropriate call out, "He is resin."
I think this hardening of the concept of a resin Jesus required the catalyst of the empty tomb. Thus, Mark assumed the empty tome.
The above, and I must say with all modesty, brilliant, analysis proves beyond any doubt that the resinurrection of Jesus MUST have occurred in 27 or 32 CE. I rest my case.
DCH
he got the idea from somewhere. Koester indicates empty tomb was part of the Passion narrative, sot hat means pre Mark. Brown proves Gospel of Peter is using an early independent tradition not derived form the canonical gospels. So that means the possibility of two sources on the guards. Or at least if only one then a very early one.
let anyone who think I'm miss reading Brown there put his money where his mouth is.
Metacrock wrote:(1) Kirby argued that Mark made up the empty tomb, or at least he reflected that idea.
(2) that idea has been echoed by atheists all over the CARM ath board for years. it's common to hear.
I first saw the argument against the empty tomb from John Crossan more than 20 years ago, and further heard the case explained (in a neutral way) in college. You really think it was exclusive to Brown?
Last edited by Diogenes the Cynic on Sat May 03, 2014 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How come only Matthew mentions guards? What were they guarding the tomb FROM? Graverobbers? Why? What did they care if the body of a nobody got stolen?
You know what you do if you're a Roman Governor and you want to make sure everybody knows somebody is dead? You leave him on the cross. Problem solved. That was exactly the point of crucifixion, after all, to display the body.
Diogenes the Cynic wrote:How come only Matthew mentions guards? What were they guarding the tomb FROM? Graverobbers? Why? What did they care if the body of a nobody got stolen?
The guards were placed at the tomb because the Judeans feared the disciples of Jesus would attempt to steal his body and further deceive the people.
Now on the next day, the day after the preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together with Pilate, 63and said, "Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I am to rise again.'64"Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure until the third day, otherwise His disciples may come and steal Him away and say to the people, 'He has risen from the dead,' and the last deception will be worse than the first." http://biblehub.com/matthew/27-63.htm
Diogenes the Cynic wrote:
You know what you do if you're a Roman Governor and you want to make sure everybody knows somebody is dead? You leave him on the cross. Problem solved. That was exactly the point of crucifixion, after all, to display the body.
Allegedly, Jesus could not be left on the cross due to the following;
But the Judeans, because it was evening, they were saying, “These bodies will not pass the night on their crosses, because the Sabbath day is approaching”, for it was a great Sabbath day. And they sought from Pilate to break the legs of those who had been crucified, and they would be taken away. http://biblehub.com/john/19-31.htm
arnoldo wrote:The guards were placed at the tomb because the Judeans feared the disciples of Jesus would attempt to steal his body and further deceive the people.
Now on the next day, the day after the preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together with Pilate, 63and said, "Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I am to rise again.'64"Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure until the third day, otherwise His disciples may come and steal Him away and say to the people, 'He has risen from the dead,' and the last deception will be worse than the first." http://biblehub.com/matthew/27-63.htm
You don't actually think Jesus really said he was going to rise from the dead, do you? Why would he? That was not a Messianic expectation. And if that was a concxern (which it wasn't), then why not just leave him on the cross?
Allegedly, Jesus could not be left on the cross due to the following;
But the Judeans, because it was evening, they were saying, “These bodies will not pass the night on their crosses, because the Sabbath day is approaching”, for it was a great Sabbath day. And they sought from Pilate to break the legs of those who had been crucified, and they would be taken away. http://biblehub.com/john/19-31.htm
You're trying to use the Matthew to support Matthew, which is fallacious. Even if you could support the Romans actually having any such practice of taking bodies off of crosses for the Sabbath, the bodies would have been dumped in a common criminal's pit, not into a proper tomb.
Diogenes the Cynic wrote:
You're trying to use the Matthew to support Matthew, which is fallacious. Even if you could support the Romans actually having any such practice of taking bodies off of crosses for the Sabbath, the bodies would have been dumped in a common criminal's pit, not into a proper tomb.
Josephus gives an account of someone who was crucified being taken care of properly after being taken down off a cross.
Life 76
And when I was sent by Titus Caesar with Cerealins, and a thousand horsemen, to a certain village called Thecoa, in order to know whether it were a place fit for a camp, as I came back, I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician’s hands, while the third recovered. http://clas-pages.uncc.edu/james-tabor/ ... ucifixion/
So it does not follow that all persons who were crucified were dumped into a common criminal's pit by the Romans.
Josephus tells about getting friends taken off the cross while they were still alive, and even that took an extraordinary action by the Emperor himself. Josephus also doesn't say how the bodies were disposed of.
True, but Jewish proscriptions would seem to favor a proper burial for the deceased. . .whether the Romans respected jewish customs is another story. Note the italicized commentary below.
Jewish War 4: Chapter 5
Josephus reports on the Jewish custom of taking down the bodies of those crucified by the Romans during the Great Revolt and burying them, if permitted, before sundown. This was in response to the Torah Mitzvah found in Deuteronomy 21:22-23: “When someone is convictged of a crime punishable by death and is executed, and yo9u hang him on a tree, his corpse must not remain all night upon the tree; you shall bury him that same day, for anyone hung on a tree is under God’s curse.”
2. But the rage of the Idumeans was not satiated by these slaughters; but they now betook themselves to the city, and plundered every house, and slew every one they met; and for the other multitude, they esteemed it needless to go on with killing them, but they sought for the high priests, and the generality went with the greatest zeal against them; and as soon as they caught them they slew them, and then standing upon their dead bodies, in way of jest, upbraided Ananus with his kindness to the people, and Jesus with his speech made to them from the wall. Nay, they proceeded to that degree of impiety, as to cast away their dead bodies without burial, although the Jews used to take so much care of the burial of men, that they took down those that were condemned and crucified, and buried them before the going down of the sun. I should not mistake if I said that the death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city, and that from this very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall, and the ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high priest, and the procurer of their preservation, slain in the midst of their city. http://clas-pages.uncc.edu/james-tabor/ ... ucifixion/
