John the Baptist has usurped the role of the Marcion's Jesus

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Giuseppe
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John the Baptist has usurped the role of the Marcion's Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »


And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins

(Mark 1:4)

Origen of Alexandria wrote that John the Baptist had died before Christ,
"so that he might descend to the lower regions and announce [preach] his coming. For everywhere the witness and forerunner of Jesus is John, being born before and dying shortly before the Son of God, so that not only to those of his generation but likewise to those who lived before Christ should liberation from the death be preached, and that he might everywhere prepare a people trained to receive the Lord."

(Origen, In Lucam Homily (Homily on Luke) 4, in PG 12 :1811.)


Hippolytus, wrote that John the Baptist had died first that he might prepare the souls in the spirit world for the gospel. John
, “first preached to those in Hades, becoming a forerunner there when he was put to death by Herod, that there too he might intimate that the Saviour would descend to ransom the souls of the saints from the hand of death.”


In Marcion, it was Jesus who descended in Hades to preach liberation from the demiurge. To ransom the souls from the demiurge.

This is why Capernaum is, per Heracleon,
"the uttermost parts of the Cosmos, the regions of matter into which He 'came-down .'"

Jesus, not John.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: John the Baptist has usurped the role of the Marcion's Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

In Marcion, Jesus appeared in Hades and announced the his new god. It is Elijah, among the other prophets in Hades, who saw (witnessed) Jesus preaching in Hades (and Elijah rejected the god of Jesus).

Mark inverts the relations between preacher and listener. Now it is Elijah who preaches in the wilderness, and not more Jesus, who is reduced to the role of listener.

Since in Mark the scene had to happen on the earth, and not more in Hades (as in Marcion), the problem was that Elijah couldn't be on earth in the recent times.

John was invented to be himself the new Elijah, in substitution of the old, so that now this new Elijah could work on the earth in recent times.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: John the Baptist has usurped the role of the Marcion's Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »



MarcionMark
Jesus descends in HadesJohn appeared in wilderness
Jesus reveals himself to Elijah and the other prophetsJohn reveals himself to the Jews
Jesus reveals himself to Elijah and the other prophetsJohn reveals himself to the Jews
All the souls of the sinners (from the Serpent to Cain etc) accept the alien god of which Jesus is the sonAll the sinners accept the baptism by John in the name of YHWH
Elijah is witness of the fact that Jesus comes from an alien god John the Baptist is not witness of the fact that the Christ descends on Jesus (thanks Joe Wallack to signal it)
Elijah remains in HadesJesus remains in wilderness until John is arrested
Jesus descends in GalileeJesus starts the his preaching in Galilee
John is never named. Elijah is already in HadesJohn, if he existed, is identified and used as the Elijah redivivus on the earth in recent times


Assume that John is already named in Marcion behind any occurrence of Elijah in the table above: then the disciples of Jesus follow him because they believe wrongly that Jesus is John redivivus (being already themselves the disciples of John in the past) and follow blindly him. Peter even confesses that Jesus, in addition to be John/Elijah, is the Jewish Christ. Hence Jesus rejects him.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: John the Baptist has usurped the role of the Marcion's Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

I should confess that, among all the possible "coincidences", the following "coincidence" seems to be alone able to do the my case: that the baptism of many people by John is simply the euhemerization of the grace given by the alien Christ to the sinners imprisoned in Sheol:
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:50 am

MarcionMark
All the souls of the sinners (from the Serpent to Cain etc) accept the alien god of which Jesus is the sonAll the sinners accept the baptism by John in the name of YHWH


The name itself of "John", meaning "grace of YHWH", seems to be another suggestive "coincidence": the "grace of Yhwh" replaces on the earth the "grace of the Good God" given in the Sheol of the demiurge.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
lsayre
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Re: John the Baptist has usurped the role of the Marcion's Jesus

Post by lsayre »

Sources?
Giuseppe
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Re: John the Baptist has usurped the role of the Marcion's Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

lsayre wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:51 amSources?

“In addition to his blasphemy against God Himself, he advanced this also, truly speaking as with the mouth of the devil, and saying all things in direct opposition to the truth—that Cain, and those like him, and the Sodomites, and the Egyptians, and others like them, and, in fine, all the nations who walked in all sorts of abomination, were saved by the Lord, on His descending into Hades, and on their running unto Him, and that they welcomed Him into their kingdom. But the serpent which was in Marcion declared that Abel, and Enoch, and Noah, and those other righteous men who sprang from the patriarch Abraham, with all the prophets, and those who were pleasing to God, did not partake in salvation. For since these men, he says, knew that their God was constantly tempting them, so now they suspected that He was tempting them, and did not run to Jesus, or believe His announcement: and for this reason he declared that their souls remained in Hades.”

(From Book I, chap. 27 of Against Heresies)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103127.htm

There would be also Epiphanius reporting the same information somewhere in Panarion.

In addition to "Capernaum"=Sheol per Heracleon, the my case is made.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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MrMacSon
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Re: John the Baptist has usurped the role of the Marcion's Jesus

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:46 pm In Marcion, Jesus appeared in Hades and announced...his new god.1 It is Elijah, among the other prophets in Hades, who saw (witnessed) Jesus preaching in Hades (and Elijah rejected the god of Jesus2).

Mark inverts the relations between preacher and listener. Now it is Elijah who preaches in the wilderness, and not...Jesus, who is reduced to the role of listener.

Since in Mark the scene had to happen on the earth, and not...in Hades (as [allegedly] in Marcion), the problem was that Elijah couldn't be on earth in...recent times.

John was invented to be...the new Elijah, in substitution of the old, so that now this new Elijah could work on the earth in recent times.
1. Where is this stated? (somewhere in Tertullian, presumably)

2. On what basis do you say 'Elijah rejected the god of Jesus' ?
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MrMacSon
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Re: John the Baptist has usurped the role of the Marcion's Jesus

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:29 pm
... Capernaum is, per Heracleon,
"the uttermost parts of the Cosmos, the regions of matter into which He 'came-down'."

Jesus, not John.
Where is "the uttermost parts of the Cosmos, the regions of matter into which He 'came-down' " from?

Edwin Abbott gives it as Origen on John ii. 12 (Lomm i. 291) in The Fourfold Gospel, p. 179, but I can't find it or anything like it in new advent's version of Origen's Commentary on John Book II

Interestingly, in footnote 2 on p. 179 of The Fourfold Gospel, Abbott gives various church fathers as associating Capernaum with field, villa or village of Consolation.
Giuseppe
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Re: John the Baptist has usurped the role of the Marcion's Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

MrMacSon wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:38 pm
1. Where is this stated? (somewhere in Tertullian, presumably)

2. On what basis do you say 'Elijah rejected the god of Jesus' ?
both the your questions find their respective answers in the following quote of Irenaeus:
“In addition to his blasphemy against God Himself, he advanced this also, truly speaking as with the mouth of the devil, and saying all things in direct opposition to the truth—that Cain, and those like him, and the Sodomites, and the Egyptians, and others like them, and, in fine, all the nations who walked in all sorts of abomination, were saved by the Lord, on His descending into Hades, and on their running unto Him, and that they welcomed Him into their kingdom. But the serpent which was in Marcion declared that Abel, and Enoch, and Noah, and those other righteous men who sprang from the patriarch Abraham, with all the prophets, and those who were pleasing to God, did not partake in salvation. For since these men, he says, knew that their God was constantly tempting them, so now they suspected that He was tempting them, and did not run to Jesus, or believe His announcement: and for this reason he declared that their souls remained in Hades.”

(From Book I, chap. 27 of Against Heresies)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103127.htm

And in Epiphanius (Pan. 42.4,3-4):
And he says that Christ has descended from on high, from the invisible Father who cannot be named, for the salvation of souls and the confusion of the God of the Jews, the Law, the prophets, and anything of the kind. The Lord has gone down even to Hades to save Cain, Korah, Dathan, Abiram, Esau, and all the gentiles who had not known the God of the Jews. But he has left Abel, Enoch, Noah,
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and Solomon there because, as he says, they recognized the God of the Jews, the maker and creator, and have done what is congenial to him, and did not devote themselves to the
invisible God.

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: John the Baptist has usurped the role of the Marcion's Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

MrMacSon wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:02 pm Where is "the uttermost parts of the Cosmos, the regions of matter into which He 'came-down' " from?
So Heracleon commenting the marcionite gospel (per Turmel) of proto-John:
"After this he went down to Capernaum," indicate the beginning of a new dispensation, for "he went down" is not said idly. Capernaum, means these farthest-out parts of the world, the material realm into which he descended. And since the place was alien to him, he is not reported either to have done anything or said anything in it.

http://gnosis.org/library/fragh.htm
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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