A smoking gun against the JC historicists?

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maryhelena
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A smoking gun against the JC historicists?

Post by maryhelena »

On another thread PhilosopherJay posted a picture of a coin from the time of Herod the Great. Rather than derail that other thread, I'm reposting my comments here.
PhilosopherJay wrote:Image

picture from http://www.simchajtv.com/king-herod-a-messiah/

This coin is from 37 B.C.E. and was issued by Herod. Note on one side of this coin (left in the picture) next to the incense burner in the center, we get a staurogram, the combination of T (Taf) and P (Rho) together. It looks a little like the Egyptian ankh symbol, but it is different. This symbol much have had an important and well known meaning for Jews.
The symbol obviously did not mean crucifixion as it did in later Christian times. Why would Herod be issuing a coin with a crucifixion symbol?
Wow............Herod the Great puts a cross symbol on his first coins - a coin dated from 37 b.c. - a year in which he was responsible for sending Antigonus to Marc Antony, in Antioch. Marc Antony, re Cassius Dio, putting Antigonus on a cross prior to executing him. My, my - that must have gone down well with the Hasmoneans.... :thumbdown:

The cross, for Herod, a symbol of his victory over the Hasmoneans?

I've not yet read the links - will be doing so....
---------------------
Quote from one of the links....
The tau-rho staurogram, like other christograms, was originally a pre-Christian symbol. A Herodian coin featuring the Staurogram predates the crucifixion. Soon after, Christian adoption of staurogram symbols serve as the first visual images of Jesus on the cross.

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dail ... taurogram/
Now goodness me - is Herod's coin with the cross symbol the smoking gun? A smoking gun against the theory that the gospel crucified Jesus figure of around 30/33 c.e. was a historical figure?

======================================================

<snip>
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Re: A smoking gun against the JC historicists?

Post by maryhelena »

An interpretation of the Herod coin, a coin depicting a cross, is that Herod the Great is referencing himself as a Messiah figure. I find this interpretation to be without merit. How in heavens name could a man who has just had a King and High Priest of the Jews executed, after a scourging and a humiliating hanging on a cross, imagine himself to ever be accepted as a Messiah figure?

That this coin was minted shortly after Herod captured Jerusalem and had Antigonus executed reflects more about that event than any notions Herod might have entertained about viewing himself as a Messiah figure. That the coin depicts Messianic imagery, re the star, and on the other side a cross, suggests more that Herod was recording his victory over the downfall of the Hasmonean dynasty and any Messianic aspirations that dynasty had. Herod brought that Messianic star down to earth by having its Hasmonean representative hung on a cross.

http://www.simchajtv.com/king-herod-a-messiah/

Why was a staurogram (¬ ), a symbol that combines a tau (T) and a rho (P) representing the crucifixion of Jesus, displayed prominently on a coin minted in Samaria under King Herod the Great of Judaea?

New Testament scholar, Professor Larry Hurtado, recently wrote an article about staurograms using this coin to exemplify pre-Christian, non-messianic use of the symbol. He said that King Herod used the symbol in 37 B.C.E. to represent the Greek word “trias,” meaning three, indicating the third year of King Herod’s reign.

However, numismatists (experts on coins) don’t all agree with Professor Hurtado’s interpretation.
You see, he ignored all the other symbols on the coin. On the “heads” side (left) a star rises above a military helmet as though at the end of a scepter. This recalls Balaam’s curse (Numbers 24:17), the original prophecy from the time of Moses about the coming of a messiah, “I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.” Palm branches next to the star recall that palm branches, symbols of rejoicing and triumph, were strewn on the path before Jesus on Palm Sunday. No Jew in the first century B.C.E could look at these symbols without thinking of their foretold militaristic messiah.
The number three appears on the “tails” side of the coin, but that’s only part of the story. Greek letters circle the edge of the coin saying “of King Herod.” An incense altar in the center recalls incense burning in the Second Temple. To the left of the burner, the Greek letters L and Γ are a date, literally “year three” of King Herod’s reign. Instead of indicating “three,” the staurogram to the right of the burner actually combines a chi (X) and a rho (P), representing “christos,” the Greek word for “anointed.” In Hebrew, that’s moshiach (messiah)!

How could this be possible?

In 40 B.C.E., the Parthians and Romans each anointed a “King of the Jews” and fought a war to determine which puppet would rule Judaea. The Parthians anointed Mattathias Antigonos and the Romans anointed Herod. After three years, the Romans won and installed King Herod on his throne. As the first Jewish king to use only Greek on his coins, he combined a chi and rho on his coins to symbolize himself as the rightfully anointed (christos) King of Judaea.
Was Herod depicting his victory over Jerusalem and the Hasmonean Dynasty via his coinage?
The Romans, after their victory over Jerusalem in 70 c.e., took to coins to celebrate their victory.

Image
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Re: A smoking gun against the JC historicists?

Post by maryhelena »

The Herod coin with the cross symbol:

The Coins of Herod: A Modern Analysis and Die Classification: Donald Tzvi, Jean-Phillipe Fontanille: Page 126. Via Google Books.

It seems that a definitive meaning for the cross or saltire is elusive. The symbol is difficult to disregard nor can one demote it by deeming it only a decorative element. Meshorer’s royalty-priesthood explanation is cogent – although its proof text is anachronistic and consequently insufficient. Whatever the cross or saltire does stand for it interacts with the diadem’s message of kingship.,
So, a King and a cross reflected on the same coin - a coin dated around 37 b.c. The year Herod the Great sent the last Jewish King to Marc Antony in Antioch - where he was hung on a cross prior to being executed.

Looks to me that Herod might well be celebrating his victory over the Hasmoneans with this coin....

-----------------------
While Marc Antony killed Antigonus, he was only the paid assassin - by Herod. Josephus placing the blame where it belongs - at the door of Herod the Great.
War: Book 1

665 So Herod died just five days after killing his son, after reigning for thirty-four years since he had Antigonus killed and took over his kingdom,
Ant. Book 17.

191 When he had done all this, he died, five days after having Antipater killed, having ruled for thirty four years after having Antigonus killed,
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Re: A smoking gun against the JC historicists?

Post by maryhelena »

Herod the Great used the symbol of a cross, a staurogram, on a coin from around 37 b.c., the year that Antigonus was hung on a cross prior to being executed. The early christians made use of this symbol for the crucifixion of the gospel JC. Is there a connection? There is around a 70 year connection. The gospel story of the JC crucifixion being set, gLuke, sometime between 30 - 33 c.e. It seems probable that the gospel JC crucifixion story is a re-creation, a replaying of the historical events of 37 b.c. when a King of the Jews was executed by the Roman, Marc Antony.


Image
The staurogram combines the Greek letters tau-rho to stand in for parts of the Greek words for “cross” (stauros) and “crucify” (stauroō) in Bodmer papyrus P75. Staurograms serve as the earliest images of Jesus on the cross, predating other Christian crucifixion imagery by 200 years. Foundation Martin Bodmer.


http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dail ... taurogram/
Gospel of Luke in Bodmer papyrus P75
The Staurogram
Earliest Depiction of Jesus’ Crucifixion

By Larry W. Hurtado

The staurogram, a combination of the Greek letters tau and rho, looks like a human figure hanging on a cross and stands in for parts of the Greek words for “cross” (stauros) and “crucify” (stauroō) in Bodmer papyrus P66, a copy of the Gospel of John (200 C.E.). The staurogram is the earliest visual reference to Jesus’ crucifixion.

http://members.bib-arch.org/publication ... rticleID=5
Unfortunately, I can't get a url to post the picture of the P66 fragment...but the caption is pasted above - and the link takes one to the site.
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Re: A smoking gun against the JC historicists

Post by ficino »

In the photo that you post, the compendium does not represent only tau and rho but, w/ the stroke above them, the four letters ταυρ. Kind of looks like the beginning of "bull" in Greek! Probaby that doesn't matter, though. Anyway, if one rejects the chi-rho resolution of the compendium and sticks with tau-rho, could Herod's coin be alluding to something with the letters tau and rho but not a σταυρός?
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Re: A smoking gun against the JC historicists?

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ficino wrote:In the photo that you post, the compendium does not represent only tau and rho but, w/ the stroke above them, the four letters ταυρ. Kind of looks like the beginning of "bull" in Greek! Probaby that doesn't matter, though. Anyway, if one rejects the chi-rho resolution of the compendium and sticks with tau-rho, could Herod's coin be alluding to something with the letters tau and rho but not a σταυρός?
I don't know Greek. However, from what I have read from the links referenced above - the interpretation of the symbol on the coin is that it is a symbol for a cross.
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Re: A smoking gun against the JC historicists?

Post by maryhelena »

The oldest christian symbol of the gospel JC on a cross is - the staurogram. Herod the Great used this symbol on a coin from 37 b.c. after Marc Antony had Antigonus hung on a cross prior to his execution.

Among the several monograms used by early Christians to refer to Jesus, the so-called “staurogram” or “cross-monogram”, which is comprised of the Greek majuscule forms of the letters tau and rho, the vertical line of the rho superimposed on the vertical stroke of the tau, is of particular historical significance.The specific proposal that I shall support in the present essay is that the Christian use of this device in certain early manuscripts represents the earliest extant visual reference to the crucified Jesus, indeed, considerably prior to what is commonly thought to be the time (fourth or fifth century ce) when Christians began to portray the crucifixion of Jesus visually.

https://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/handle/1842/1204

Title: New Testament Manuscripts: Their Text and Their World
Authors: Hurtado, Larry W
Issue Date: 2006
Citation: New Testament Manuscripts: Their Text and Their World, ed. Thomas J. Kraus and Tobias Nicklas. “Texts and Editions for New Testament Study,” 2. Leiden: Brill 2006. Pp. 207-26.
Publisher: Leiden: Brill
https://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/ ... olumea.pdf
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Re: A smoking gun against the JC historicists?

Post by DCHindley »

mh,

But the following coin, from a coin dealer's site, and which appears to be identical to the one Jay linked to:

Image

is dated to 40 BCE, in fact, to year 3 of the tetrarchy, or 40 BCE (it would have to have been late that year):
10215. JUDAEA, HERODIAN KINGS, HEROD I (THE GREAT), 40-4 BC, Copper eight protot, Hendin 486, TJC 44, AJC II 1, Choice VF, 25mm, Samaria mint, 40 B.C.; obverse HRWDOU BASILEWS (of King Herod), tripod, ceremonial bowl (lebes) above, LG - P (= year 3 of the tetrarchy = 40 B.C.) across fields; reverse military helmet facing, decorated with ivy?, with cheek pieces and straps, wreathed with acanthus leaves, star above, flanked by two palm-branches. Excellent contrasting patina. Historic coin of the Herod of the Bible. The largest denomination of coins Herod issued. An excellent example with great contrasting patina.
Per Schurer's original English translation of Jewish People:
... in the autumn of B.C. 41, when Antony had gone to Antioch, the Jewish nobles renewed their charges against Phasael and Herod. But neither at this time did they lead to any result.

Antony, when he was serving in Syria under Gabinius in B.C. 57-55, had been for many years the intimate friend of Antipater. That friendship he did not now forget.

And since, besides, Hyrcanus, who had also gone to Antioch, gave a favourable account of the two brothers, Antony appointed Phasael and Herod tetrarchs of the country of the Jews.
Herod was still in control of Galilee and Samaria after his brother Phasael and Hyrcanus stepped into the Parthian trap and Judea was doomed to Parthian occupation and the rule by Antigonus. Apparently, when Herod hurried to Rome to stake his claim on Judea now that the HP was disqualified and his brother committed suicide, his mint in Sebaste kept churning out prutahs in his name. Herod did not get back to Palestine until 39 BCE (by this time loosing control of Galilee but retaining control of Samaria). While coin dating can be tricky because of the wide variety of mint marks in use in this period, LG could mean "year 3" and I assume the combination of Rho ("P") with a horizontal line through it (a "T"?) could be a symbol for the tetrarchy of him and his brother. By "year 3" I have to suppose yr 1 was the Greek year ending Sept 41, year 2 = the Greek year Oct 41-Sept 40, and year 3 = the year Oct 40-Sept 39 BCE, so it would not refer to three successive years but one full year and parts of two others at the beginning and end of the period, meaning the coin was minted after October 40 BCE.

I'll have to look at this closer.

DCH
maryhelena wrote:On another thread PhiosopherJay posted a picture of a coin from the time of Herod the Great. Rather than derail that other thread, I'm reposting my comments here.
PhilosopherJay wrote:Image

picture from http://www.simchajtv.com/king-herod-a-messiah/

This coin is from 37 B.C.E. and was issued by Herod. Note on one side of this coin (left in the picture) next to the incense burner in the center, we get a staurogram, the combination of T (Taf) and P (Rho) together. It looks a little like the Egyptian ankh symbol, but it is different. This symbol much have had an important and well known meaning for Jews.
The symbol obviously did not mean crucifixion as it did in later Christian times. Why would Herod be issuing a coin with a crucifixion symbol?
Wow............Herod the Great puts a cross symbol on his first coins - a coin dated from 37 b.c. - a year in which he was responsible for sending Antigonus to Marc Antony, in Antioch. Marc Antony, re Cassius Dio, putting Antigonus on a cross prior to executing him. My, my - that must have gone down well with the Hasmoneans.... :thumbdown:

The cross, for Herod, a symbol of his victory over the Hasmoneans?

I've not yet read the links - will be doing so....
---------------------
Quote from one of the links....
The tau-rho staurogram, like other christograms, was originally a pre-Christian symbol. A Herodian coin featuring the Staurogram predates the crucifixion. Soon after, Christian adoption of staurogram symbols serve as the first visual images of Jesus on the cross.

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dail ... taurogram/
Now goodness me - is Herod's coin with the cross symbol the smoking gun? A smoking gun against the theory that the gospel crucified Jesus figure of around 30/33 c.e. was a historical figure?

======================================================

<snip>
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Re: A smoking gun against the JC historicists?

Post by ghost »

How do you know the tau-rho does not represent Julius Caesar or Caesar Augustus?
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Re: A smoking gun against the JC historicists?

Post by DCHindley »

Oh my, hit the jackpot!

The Coins of Herod: A Modern Analysis and Die Classification, by Donald Tzvi Ariel, Jean-Philippe Fontanille, (Brill, 2011)
[124] ...

7.2. The symbol L (and letter Γ)
The symbol L (representing έτος [=year]) was well known in the East. The symbol L is found both in the 21/20 BCE inscription from Jerusalem (LK; Isaac 1983:86) and the official stone scale weight dating to 9/8 BCE (LΛB; Meshorer 1970b:97-98). The appearance of the year in the left field together with the L symbol is also found in near-contemporary coins of Demetrias (years 1, 3 and 22), Akko-Ptolemais (39/38 and 35/34 BCE), Dora (34/33 BCE) and Marisa (57 BCE) as well as other mints that are further afield.

7.3. The Ᵽ monogram
The monogram is apparently a ligature comprising the letters tau and rho (Ᵽ). It has been interpreted in nine ways, some very improbable. Nevertheless, all are presented below, in the chronological order that the interpretations were suggested.

1. 1850: crux ansata (a life-symbol of the ancient Egyptians). The idea was proposed by Cavedoni (1856:56).
2. 1855: τριάς or τρίχαλκον. This is Greek for ‘three’ or ‘triple-bronze’, implying the symbol refers to a denomination. De Saulcy (1855) suggested this in conjunction with an idea that two letters seen by Akerman (1846:135, Nos. 5-6) on a Type 2 coin should be read as ΔΙ and interpreted, together with the X on the Type 5 coin, as δίχαλκον (= double- bronze). The entire proposal was quickly rejected (Madden 1864:86-87), and the rejection may now be said to be final with the full die sequencing of the LΓ coins (Pis. 4-33), without any additional letters.
3. 1926: Τιγράνης. Hunkin believed Tigranes to be “an officer in charge of Herod’s mint, otherwise unknown,” and noted that the name occurred in Herod’s own family (Hunkin 1926:300).
4. 1936: Τραχωνῖτις (Trachonitis). This reading was suggested by Narkiss (1934:9-10; 1936:33-34) [125] and Reifenberg 1947:18. Trachonitis was not a particularly important region in Herod’s kingdom (Kanael 1951-1952:263). It was added to his kingdom at the same time as Batanea and Auranitis. Even if the receipt of those territories from Augustus were to be noted on a coin of Herod, it would make no sense for the Ᵽ monogram to indicate only one of the three gifted territories. See section 5.2 above.
5. 1942: τρίτῳ ἔτει. This is Greek for ‘in the third year’, as a duplication of the year-three denoted by the LΓ in the left field. Kanael 1951-1952:264 (and, roughly, Kanael 1963:48) proposed this reconstruction, explaining that Herod “intended to stress the fact that he was legally king even during the years...when Antigonus ruled.”
6. 1959: Τύρος (Tyre). This fanciful proposal was proffered by Meyshan (1959:115 n. 4). Richardson (1996:212) viewed the idea as plausible. When not depicting the club, palm tree, ambrosial stones and conch as a mintmark, Tyre had one distinctive letter mint mark comprised of a monogram ([a combination of Y+T+P]) surmounting a club, which is quite different from the Ᵽ monogram. See section 5.2 above.
7. 1981: Cross (+) and rho (P). Krupp and Qedar maintained that the ligature represented a cross and rho, where the cross was the same symbol as in the diadem, and stood for eta, the first Greek letter in Herod’s name. For the cross, they based themselves on a coin published by them, reading BACIΛ/ ΕΩΣ+/ΡΩΔΟΥ (Type 11, dies 020-R40; Krupp and Qedar 1981:18). The cross and rho ligature was then equivalent to H and P, meaning Ηρώδης (Krupp and Qedar 1981:18). Kokkinos accepted this decipherment, relying upon monograms from the Ascalon mint which, he believed, related to Herod’s ancestors (Kokkinos 1998:130-132; section 2.4 above). Kokkinos went on to interpret the Ᵽ monogram on Herod’s LΓ coins as the Herodian family’s “standard mint mark” (Kokkinos 1998:130). One might ask why the eta rho ligature (HP) for Herod’s name found on his official stone weight (Meshorer 1970b:97) was not used. An additional problem with Krupp and Qedar’s idea is that Herod’s name already appears in full on the coin.
8. 1981: Without deciphering the Ᵽ monogram (as in No. 3 above) Rappaport (1981:365) said it signified the mint-master (section 5.2 above). Later, Richardson said the Ᵽ monogram must have signified the location of the mint (like Nos. 4 and 6 above) or the mint-master (Richardson 1996:160 n. 31). Without doubt, the location of the mint should not be established only on the basis of an interpretation of this monogram. If, in fact, Jerusalem was the mint of these coins, as we have concluded (section 5.2 above), there appears to be no obvious connection between the Ᵽ monogram and the name of that city.
9. 1982: τετρήρχης. Meshorer (TJC:62) noted that Ptolemy, the Iturean king of Chalcis, was a tetrarch and also inscribed Ᵽ on his coins. The coin in question (Kindler 1993:286, No. 6), dates to 63/62 BCE, and Ᵽ appears in the right field as on the LΓ coins. Meshorer interpreted the Ᵽ monogram on Ptolemy’s coin as standing for the Greek word for tetrarch. This is reasonable, as this coin of Ptolemy is one in which an inscription noting the king’s status as tetrarch is absent. Meshorer interpreted the Ᵽ on Herod’s coins to mean tetrarch as well, and used this fact to support his dating of the coin series to 40 BCE (section 5.2 above). Liampi (1989:39) accepted that the Ᵽ monogram meant tetrarch. Ptolemy’s monogram, however, is an isolated instance. While this interpretation is an improvement over Rappaport’s poor use of a 75-year-old parallel (section 5.2 above), Ptolemy nevertheless ruled more than 20 years before Herod. His other coins did not bear this monogram; nor is it found on coins of numerous other contemporary tetrarchs.

...

[126] In our opinion, the monogram should he taken to be an abbreviation of a person’s name, as was common on ancient coins. The closest view to this above is Rappaport’s (No. 8); he suggested that the monogram signified the mint-master’s name. It would he better to view the monogram as the symbol of the magistrate (in later periods called a liturgist; Harl 1987:27) responsible for the coin issue. As in other mints in the region, this was the person — often unidentified — who supervised the production of the issue (Kushnir-Stein 1999:197). While we cannot reconstruct his name here, we may suppose he was closely associated with Herod. In the southern Levant, unidentified monograms and abstract symbols are the rule, not the exception.
Explanation #5 for the monogram consisting of a T (tau) and a P (rho) would date this to 37 BCE as you had understood it, but if L (symbol for "year") Γ (Greek letter gamma = number 3) in the left field means "Year 3" (and it almost certainly does) then why use a monogram that says essentially the same thing in the right field?. Explanation #9 makes better sense to me, but what does "tetrarch" mean? When he and his brother Phasael were made such (essentially glorified procurators over Judea/Samaria while Hyrcanus was the HP and "ethnarch") by Marc Antony in fall of 41 BCE, so yr 3 means 40/39 BCE, or was this some sort of way of designating Herod "king" by appointment of the Roman Senate on 40 BCE, where yr 3 means 37 BCE? But why not just call him "king"? To call him a "tetrarch" would seem like a demotion.

I think that maybe the date of this coin was more like 39 or 38 BCE, when he was churning out pocket money (he did not issue any silver money, but used the drachmas in general circulation or Roman denarii of his Roman patrons) to get his name out there as the remaining "legal local ruler" (now that his brother was dead), and grease the local economy, until he could unseat the currently ruling Antigonus. The Romans may have really told Herod that he was "king" if, and only if, he could unseat Antigonus. Until then, he fell back on his previously bestowed designation "tetrarch".

DCH (and may Brill forgive me for the extensive citation, made in the spirit of investigative study, otherwise it may be purchased for a mere $175 - but for that money, maryhelena, you at least get a hardback)
Last edited by DCHindley on Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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