A smoking gun against the JC historicists?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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DCHindley
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Re: A smoking gun against the JC historicists?o am

Post by DCHindley »

Stephan Huller wrote:I am out of the country filming a documentary on this very subject. Will get photos of the coins for DCH shortly.
Mr Huller,

Now that you are back amongst us civilized folks (well, up there in Seattle you are at least close to Canada) do you think you might be able to find the image of the Ptolemy Mnaeus coin from Chalcis that is supposed to use the "tau-rho" image as a symbol for "tetrarch"?

DCH
The Coins of Herod: A Modern Analysis and Die Classification, by Donald Tzvi Ariel, Jean-Philippe Fontanille, (Brill, 2011, p. 125)

9. 1982: τετρήρχης. Meshorer (TJC:62) noted that Ptolemy, the Iturean king of Chalcis, was a tetrarch and also inscribed Ᵽ on his coins. The coin in question (Kindler 1993:286, No. 6), dates to 63/62 BCE, and Ᵽ appears in the right field as on the LΓ coins. Meshorer interpreted the Ᵽ monogram on Ptolemy’s coin as standing for the Greek word for tetrarch. This is reasonable, as this coin of Ptolemy is one in which an inscription noting the king’s status as tetrarch is absent. Meshorer interpreted the Ᵽ on Herod’s coins to mean tetrarch as well, and used this fact to support his dating of the coin series to 40 BCE (section 5.2 above). Liampi (1989:39) accepted that the Ᵽ monogram meant tetrarch. Ptolemy’s monogram, however, is an isolated instance. While this interpretation is an improvement over Rappaport’s poor use of a 75-year-old parallel (section 5.2 above), Ptolemy nevertheless ruled more than 20 years before Herod. His other coins did not bear this monogram; nor is it found on coins of numerous other contemporary tetrarchs.
Fuller bibliography prevented by limited page images on Google Books = Amazon Preview

However, there is this in a Durham e-thesis online:

Kindley (1993)
A. Kindler, 'On the coins of the Ituraeans', in: M Hoc (ed.) Proceedings of the XIth International Numismatic Congress. Organized for the 150th Anniersary of the Societe Royale de Numismatique de Belgique Brussles, September 8th-13th, 1991 (Louvian-la-Neuve 1993) 283-288.
http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/9387/1/PhD_The ... n.pdf?DDD3+
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maryhelena
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Re: A smoking gun against the JC historicists?o am

Post by maryhelena »

DCHindley wrote:
Stephan Huller wrote:I am out of the country filming a documentary on this very subject. Will get photos of the coins for DCH shortly.
Mr Huller,

Now that you are back amongst us civilized folks (well, up there in Seattle you are at least close to Canada) do you think you might be able to find the image of the Ptolemy Mnaeus coin from Chalcis that is supposed to use the "tau-rho" image as a symbol for "tetrarch"?

DCH
Since Stephan has not produced the coin from Chalcis - you might care to consider what Nikos Kokkinos has to say:

Nikos Kokkinos: The Herodian Dynasty: Origins, Role in Society and Eclipse

Page 131:

footnote: 167. Krupp and Qedar 1981: pl. 5.3,5: cf. A rare specimen of Herod’s ‘anchor’ coins with the abbreviation HP on the obverse (Kindler, 1953: 240, no.4, pl.15.4); this monogram also appears to have been added at the bottom of one of Herod’s inscriptions from Athens (cf. below n.195) but this has to be discussed elsewhere. Meshorer’s (1990-1991) new reference to a Chalcis coin with a similar monogram does little to support his view of tetrarchs, not only because as a symbol of authority it could have been adopted in different contexts, but also because of the intriguing relationship of the Herods with Chalcis (see above n.96)

Page 130

An unusual monogram (mh = the tau-rho staurogram) most probably belonging to the person in control of the mint, also appears for the first time. If this is understood as a ligature of the initial two letters HP (as later types and other evidences suggest) of the dynastic name ‘Herod’, this person acting in the now ‘Holy and Inviolable’ city, could have been the same early Herod of our family. The monogram is also found in some subsequent pre-independence issues of Ascalon, in the following development forms. (mh = years 110/9, b.c.e. 109/8 b.c.e. and 107/6 b.c.e.)

For many years numismatists wrested with the question of the symbol of (mh = the tau-rho) found on the famous coins (Year 3) of Herod the Great.

(mh = Kokkinos then gives a recount of the various interpretations of the tau-rho).

In the light of the evidence presented above a positive answer may now be attempted; the monogram on Herod’s coins is a version of the (by then) standard mint mark, denoting Herodian authority (HP). Krupp and Qedar themselves realized that the ligature ‘combines a Greek H and P, the two initial letters of HP (WAHC). Their claim was supported by a specimen (anchor/legend type) in which the first letter of Herod’s name is replaced by a cross. Rappaport, who feels that Herod’s Year 3 coins were in fact struck at Ascalon, came very close to suspecting that the Ascalonian monogram represents the Herodian family:

As the monogram is most probably a sign of the mintmaster if may represent two magistrates of the same name and family, the one contemporary of Hyran I, the other of Herod.

The connection of the Herods with the early coins of Ascalon, as revealed here, continued after independence....................The first known examples of the new era (Year 6) are dated to 98 b.c.e. and again they show the Herodian mint mark - perhaps in the very year that Antipas rose to power under Alexander Jannaeus.

(mh = this Herodian mint mark being one of the development forms)

In the book, Kokkinos has depicted the tau-rho with a picture symbol - which I can't reproduce...

So there we have it....Kokkinos connects the Herodian family with Ascalon. Coins depicting the tau-rho were minted in Ascalon. Kokkinos suggests this monogram was a Herodian family monogram.

Back to the Year 3 coin of Herod that has this tau-rho symbol.....

Early christians used this symbol, in their gospel text, to depict their crucified JC. This symbol was used by Herod I on his Year 3 coins. The year, 37 b.c.e. ( 40 b.c.e. made King in Rome) in which he had Antigonus, the last King and High Priest of the Jews, hung on a cross, scoured and later beheaded. In using this symbol, a Herodian family monogram, the early christians were connecting the execution of their Christ figure to Herod I. There was no historical gospel Jesus - hence no gospel Jesus crucified in the 15th year of Tiberius. The only crucifixion of interest to the gospel writers was the historical crucifixion and beheading of Antigonus. A crucifixion they, symbolically, stamped with a Herodian family monogram - the tau-rho.



The Coins of Herod: A Modern Analysis and Die Classification, by Donald Tzvi Ariel, Jean-Philippe Fontanille, (Brill, 2011, p. 125)

9. 1982: τετρήρχης. Meshorer (TJC:62) noted that Ptolemy, the Iturean king of Chalcis, was a tetrarch and also inscribed Ᵽ on his coins. The coin in question (Kindler 1993:286, No. 6), dates to 63/62 BCE, and Ᵽ appears in the right field as on the LΓ coins. Meshorer interpreted the Ᵽ monogram on Ptolemy’s coin as standing for the Greek word for tetrarch. This is reasonable, as this coin of Ptolemy is one in which an inscription noting the king’s status as tetrarch is absent. Meshorer interpreted the Ᵽ on Herod’s coins to mean tetrarch as well, and used this fact to support his dating of the coin series to 40 BCE (section 5.2 above). Liampi (1989:39) accepted that the Ᵽ monogram meant tetrarch. Ptolemy’s monogram, however, is an isolated instance. While this interpretation is an improvement over Rappaport’s poor use of a 75-year-old parallel (section 5.2 above), Ptolemy nevertheless ruled more than 20 years before Herod. His other coins did not bear this monogram; nor is it found on coins of numerous other contemporary tetrarchs.
Fuller bibliography prevented by limited page images on Google Books = Amazon Preview

However, there is this in a Durham e-thesis online:

Kindley (1993)
A. Kindler, 'On the coins of the Ituraeans', in: M Hoc (ed.) Proceedings of the XIth International Numismatic Congress. Organized for the 150th Anniersary of the Societe Royale de Numismatique de Belgique Brussles, September 8th-13th, 1991 (Louvian-la-Neuve 1993) 283-288.
http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/9387/1/PhD_The ... n.pdf?DDD3+
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maryhelena
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Re: A smoking gun against the JC historicists?

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A further quote from Kokkinos

Nikos Kokkinos: The Herodian Dynasty: Origins, Role in Society and Eclipse

Page 130

From King, over a century ago, who compared it with a number of monograms including the Christian XP and the Roman sigla X denoting a denarius, or X a commander of 1000 men (xxxgreek), to Meyshan’s interpretation that the TP stands for Tyre, that is the place of minting, and to Meshore’s new idea that TP should be read xxxxxxxgreek (a title possessed by Herod before he became a king) an adequate answer has always been lacking. Krupp and Qedar referred to other unsuccessful interpretations:

Cavedoni and Levy suggested that it represents a crux ansata, the Egyptian symbol of immortality. De Saulcy and other scholars interpreted it as a ligature of a Greek T and P, standing for xxxxxgreek (three), or xxxxgreek its value. Narkiss as well as Goodenough suggested that it stands for Trachonitis, the area given to Herod in 28 b.c. Yet another suggestion was that it stands for the name Tigranes, the name of a mint-master. Kanael put forward the theory that this ligature means xxxxxgreek (‘in the third year’) the same as LI which appears together with it on the same coins.

If I'm reading Kokkinos right.....(quotes from previous post) the symbol on Herod's 3rd year coin is not technically a tau rho i.e. the symbol is not a T and a P. Kokkinos says the symbol is a H and a P.

What this means re 37 b.c.e., and the hanging of Antigonus on a cross etc is that there is probably no direct link between the symbol on the coin and Herod's by proxy crucifixion/execution of Antigonus - except perhaps he marked that year with the issue of this coin. (His de-facto rule over Judea now established thus his monogram used to reflect his victory over Antigonus).

However, it's the early christian usage of the Herodian monogram to symbolize their crucified gospel Jesus, that links the two events, ie the early christians have used the Herodian family monogram to represent their crucified gospel Jesus. Perhaps not so much as a symbol of the crucifixion itself but to identify who was responsible. In time, of course, the 'tau-rho' gave way to the chi rho symbol.

From an ahistoricist position re the gospel JC, ie there was no gospel Jesus, therefore, the early christian usage of the Herodian monogram in early gospel manuscripts indicates a direct link between a historical crucifixion (Antigonus) and Herod I. A position, obviously, supported by Cassius Dio. A position, re Dio, that is often overlooked. Herod's family monogram became the first christian symbol of crucifixion. Fascinating - Herod's monogram becoming the means, via early gospel manuscripts, to link him to the hanging on a cross and scourging of Antigonus - and thus, vindicating Cassius Dio - and, simultaneously, casting a long shadow over the historicists theory re the gospel Jesus figure. Whatever else the gospel story is referencing from Jewish history - it's crucifixion story re a King of the Jews, relates to the Hasmonean Antigonus II.
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Re: A smoking gun against the JC historicists?o am

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maryhelena wrote:A smoking gun against the JC historicists?
The only crucifixion of interest to the gospel writers was the historical crucifixion and beheading of Antigonus.
Disinterest in other crucifixions does not imply that those crucifixions didn't influence the Jesus crucifixion. This was the same Mark Antony who seven years before had crucified the Caesar wax figure.

http://www.carotta.de/subseite/texte/jwc_e/crux3.html
The image of the flagellation of Jesus, which accompanies the crucifixion, however, was co-influenced by the manner of execution of Antigonus which Cassius Dio described as outrageous. Antigonus was flagellated and crucified in Jerusalem—by the hand of the same Antonius who performed Caesar’s funeral (cf. note 183).
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Re: A smoking gun against the JC historicists?o am

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ghost wrote:
maryhelena wrote:A smoking gun against the JC historicists?
The only crucifixion of interest to the gospel writers was the historical crucifixion and beheading of Antigonus.
Disinterest in other crucifixions does not imply that those crucifixions didn't influence the Jesus crucifixion. This was the same Mark Antony who seven years before had crucified the Caesar wax figure.

http://www.carotta.de/subseite/texte/jwc_e/crux3.html
The image of the flagellation of Jesus, which accompanies the crucifixion, however, was co-influenced by the manner of execution of Antigonus which Cassius Dio described as outrageous. Antigonus was flagellated and crucified in Jerusalem—by the hand of the same Antonius who performed Caesar’s funeral (cf. note 183).
The early gospel writers could have used any crucifixion around and about them to create a symbol for their gospel Jesus story. What they did use was a Herodian family monogram as the earliest symbol of the crucifixion of their gospel Jesus. Herod, re Cassius Dio, had Antigonus, last King and High Priest of the Jews, hung on a cross, scourged and later beheaded. By using Herod's family monogram, in their gospel manuscripts, early christian writers made a connection between their gospel Jesus crucifixion story and Herod's crucifixion/execution of Antigonus.

Prior to christian usage, in early christian manuscripts, the Herodian monogram was not a symbol of a cross. It is only the early christian manuscripts usage of this symbol that has turned the Herodian family monogram into a cross symbol.

The early christian gospel writers chose to connect their gospel Jesus crucifixion story to a Herodian family monogram. Why? Herod's crucifixion (by proxy) of Antigonus. Marc Antony being the paid assassin. It is this historical crucifixion/execution of Antigonus that is reflected in the gospel pseudo-historical Jesus crucifixion story.
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Re: A smoking gun against the JC historicists?o am

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maryhelena wrote:It is this historical crucifixion/execution of Antigonus that is reflected in the gospel pseudo-historical Jesus crucifixion story.
How do you know that the Caesar wax figure crucifixion is not reflected there?
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Re: A smoking gun against the JC historicists?o am

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ghost wrote:
maryhelena wrote:It is this historical crucifixion/execution of Antigonus that is reflected in the gospel pseudo-historical Jesus crucifixion story.
How do you know that the Caesar wax figure crucifixion is not reflected there?
A wax figure crucifixion? The gospel writers had Hasmonean Jewish history to deal with. Enough there for their gospel Jesus story. No need, in their gospel story, for a wax figure crucifixion....
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Re: A smoking gun against the JC historicists?o am

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maryhelena wrote:A wax figure crucifixion?
Yes. As part of the funeral:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... tion%3D147
While they were in this temper and were already near to violence, somebody raised above the bier an image of Cæsar himself made of wax.1
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... D147#note1
1 Waxen images of the deceased were common in the funerals of distinguished persons in Rome.
maryhelena wrote:The gospel writers had Hasmonean Jewish history to deal with. Enough there for their gospel Jesus story. No need, in their gospel story, for a wax figure crucifixion....
Why not Roman?
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Re: A smoking gun against the JC historicists?o am

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ghost wrote:
maryhelena wrote:A wax figure crucifixion?
Yes. As part of the funeral:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... tion%3D147
While they were in this temper and were already near to violence, somebody raised above the bier an image of Cæsar himself made of wax.1
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... D147#note1
1 Waxen images of the deceased were common in the funerals of distinguished persons in Rome.
maryhelena wrote:The gospel writers had Hasmonean Jewish history to deal with. Enough there for their gospel Jesus story. No need, in their gospel story, for a wax figure crucifixion....
Why not Roman?
Well now, they had the Roman Marc Antony who hung Antigonus on a cross, scourged him and later beheaded him.....methinks, the gospel writers would have had their fill of Romans with just that one incident....
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Re: A smoking gun against the JC historicists?o am

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maryhelena wrote:Well now, they had the Roman Marc Antony who hung Antigonus on a cross, scourged him and later beheaded him.....methinks, the gospel writers would have had their fill of Romans with just that one incident....
Caesar was also high priest. Are there any other parallels between Antigonus and Jesus?
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