A smoking gun against the JC historicists?

[PhilosopherJay]

Hi andrewcriddle,

I magnified the entire section between 1 and 2 on the ruler from the picture you posted. Where is the right side of the fragment in relationship to the ruler?

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Hi andrewcriddle,

Wow. Great find, Andrew,

I magnified the area between 1 and 2 on the ruler by 300% and this is what I got.


I'll have to study and think about it a while, but the Tau-Rho symbol at first glance is not exactly jumping out at me.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Hi Jay

You are in the right section of the papyrus, but you need to magnify the right hand side of the fragment, not the left hand side as you have done.

Andrew Criddle

[DCHindley]

I think the problem is that the web software cannot display the full width of the picture. Copy the image file to your hard drive and open it with a viewer.

I found it by looking up the passage (Mt 26:2) in BibleWorks and looked foir the phrase "εἰς τὸ σταυρωθῆναι". If one looks at the far right end of the line immediately below the "1' mark on the ruler (the mark falls between lines of text), you will see εἰς τὸ σταυρωθῆνα[ι. The tau-rho staurogram abbreviated the underlined letters. The final iota is chopped off. There is an over-bar, indicating this is intended to be a nomina sacra.

Gotta get back to work ...

DCH

Hi andrewcriddle,

I magnified the entire section between 1 and 2 on the ruler from the picture you posted. Where is the right side of the fragment in relationship to the ruler?

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Hi andrewcriddle,

Wow. Great find, Andrew,

I magnified the area between 1 and 2 on the ruler by 300% and this is what I got.


I'll have to study and think about it a while, but the Tau-Rho symbol at first glance is not exactly jumping out at me.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Hi Jay

You are in the right section of the papyrus, but you need to magnify the right hand side of the fragment, not the left hand side as you have done.

Andrew Criddle

[PhilosopherJay]

Hi DCHindley,

Thanks DCHindley, I think I get it now.

I blew up that section to 300% magnification and this is what I got:

.

I don't see the stavrogram, but I do see an image of the planet Jupiter. Perhaps this text is really telling us that Pilate didn't crucify Jesus but he sent Jesus to Jupiter.

Warmly (with a touch of eye-rolling sarcasm),

Jay Raskin

[quote="DCHindley"]I think the problem is that the web software cannot display the full width of the picture. Copy the image file to your hard drive and open it with a viewer.

I found it by looking up the passage (Mt 26:2) in BibleWorks and looked foir the phrase "εἰς τὸ σταυρωθῆναι". If one looks at the far right end of the line immediately below the "1' mark on the ruler (the mark falls between lines of text), you will see εἰς τὸ σταυρωθῆνα[ι. The tau-rho staurogram abbreviated the underlined letters. The final iota is chopped off. There is an over-bar, indicating this is intended to be a nomina sacra.

Gotta get back to work ...

DCH

[Brad Watson, Miami]

Mary Helena (screen name?),

"JC"? Julius Caesar?! King Herod I was NOT "Great", unless you think Hitler, Stalin and Mao were "Great"?! King Herod I is a much more accurate title, don't you agree?

[DCHindley]

You got it.

I see now what folks were saying about that particular tau-rho staurogram, that it is written over an imperfection in the papyrus. Either that or the imperfection came about after it was written.

PS: Jackie Gleason as Ralph Kramden only threatened to send Alice "to the moon." I'm thinking, perhaps, that the "t" (tau) in the staurogram represents a slingshot, and the "s" (sigma) represents "(outer) space)" The over-bar represents the heavenly sphere.

DCH (spoken absolutely stone faced seriously)

Hi DCHindley,

Thanks DCHindley, I think I get it now.

I blew up that section to 300% magnification and this is what I got:

.

I don't see the stavrogram, but I do see an image of the planet Jupiter. Perhaps this text is really telling us that Pilate didn't crucify Jesus but he sent Jesus to Jupiter.

Warmly (with a touch of eye-rolling sarcasm),

Jay Raskin

I found it by looking up the passage (Mt 26:2) in BibleWorks and looked foir the phrase "εἰς τὸ σταυρωθῆναι". If one looks at the far right end of the line immediately below the "1' mark on the ruler (the mark falls between lines of text), you will see εἰς τὸ σταυρωθῆνα[ι. The tau-rho staurogram abbreviated the underlined letters. The final iota is chopped off. There is an over-bar, indicating this is intended to be a nomina sacra.

[Mental flatliner]

Now goodness me - is Herod's coin with the cross symbol the smoking gun? A smoking gun against the theory that the gospel crucified Jesus figure of around 30/33 c.e. was a historical figure?

======================================================

<snip>

How is anything in 37 BC a smoking gun of anything related to the New Testament?

(I don't get the connection...)

[DCHindley]

MH is convinced that JC is an entirely mythical figure created in the 2nd century or later, based on the historical personage of the Parthian backed Jewish king Antigonus II Matthias, who was defeated by the Roman backed king Herod, and according to the 3rd century historian Cassius Dio, was scourged on a cross before being executed for daring to oppose Roman hegemony. The part about how stories about figures like Antigonus II (and others) floating about the culture crystalized into the flesh and blood JC we know and love is a bit fuzzy, as it is with pretty much all Jesus Myth advocates.

DCH

Now goodness me - is Herod's coin with the cross symbol the smoking gun? A smoking gun against the theory that the gospel crucified Jesus figure of around 30/33 c.e. was a historical figure?<snip>

How is anything in 37 BC a smoking gun of anything related to the New Testament?

(I don't get the connection...)

[maryhelena]

MH is convinced that JC is an entirely mythical figure

MH prefers the term 'composite literary creation'. For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bond

Fleming based his fictional creation on a number of individuals he came across during his time in the Naval Intelligence Division during World War II, admitting that Bond "was a compound of all the secret agents and commando types I met during the war".[2] Among those types were his brother, Peter, who had been involved in behind-the-lines operations in Norway and Greece during the war.[3] Aside from Fleming's brother, a number of others also provided some aspects of Bond's make up, including Conrad O'Brien-ffrench, Patrick Dalzel-Job and Bill "Biffy" Dunderdale.[2]

The composite literary creation is dressed in finery taken from the OT and mythology.

created in the 2nd century or later,

Methinks, MH has never given a date for the creation of this literary figure - but a good guess - early rather than later would be first option.

based on the historical personage of the Parthian backed Jewish king Antigonus II Matthias,

See above: composite literary figures reflect as many historical figures as deemed to be relevant to that figures creators.

who was defeated by the Roman backed king Herod,

A Roman appointed King and a Parthian backed King - one King a usurper and one King with a hereditary claim to the throne of Judea.

and according to the 3rd century historian Cassius Dio, was scourged on a cross before being executed for daring to oppose Roman hegemony.

Looks like we do have the original text of Cassius Dio - thus, we need other reasons to reject his statements than simply we don't like what he says...

I broadly share your doubts about using Cassius Dio as a reliable historical source, but I think we do have the original text of Cassius Dio here and are not dependent upon Xiphilinus.

IIUC Xiphilinus did an epitome of books 36-80 (i.e. including book 49), however books 34-60 (and some fragments) still survive in the original. So it is only for books 61-80 that we depend almost entirely upon Xiphilinus.

Andrew Criddle

The part about how stories about figures like Antigonus II (and others) floating about the culture crystalized into the flesh and blood JC..is a bit fuzzy.

Same way Ian Fleming created Bond - creative licence.

flesh and blood JC we know and love

Oh, dear. Just which JC is the one being loved? Is it the revolutionary zealot JC, the social reformer JC, the apocalyptic prophet JC, the wisdom sage JC, the something else JC?

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

is a bit fuzzy, as it is with pretty much all Jesus Myth advocates.

DCH

Fuzzy? And the historicists search for a JC that they can't even agree on is somehow crystal
clear? Now then, where can that search go except for a ride on the nearest funfair roundabout?

-------------------------
An agnostic interview: Yes, Aslan runs with a historical JC.

Interview with Reza Aslan, Author of 'Zealot'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL6E4eMX-4k

[MrMacSon]

the use of the tau-rho by early Christians, a symbol that Herod had previously used on coins to celebrate his dispatching of Antigonus, a King of the Jews, certainly suggests that use of that symbol had, a t least, a role in development of a likely later composite-character or the narrative around Him.

[beowulf]

Now goodness me - is Herod's coin with the cross symbol the smoking gun? A smoking gun against the theory that the gospel crucified Jesus figure of around 30/33 c.e. was a historical figure?

======================================================

<snip>

How is anything in 37 BC a smoking gun of anything related to the New Testament?

(I don't get the connection...)

Freethinkers, rational, 'superior' posters come to the web to preach their particular folly: antigonus, herod , ceasar, homer, bayes, astrotheology....


But, usually, sceptic preachers are a great deal more pleasant than muslim, catholic, christian, judaic, brahmin, buddhist... preachers.