What if only the Romans killed Jesus (in the Earliest Gospel)?

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Giuseppe
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What if only the Romans killed Jesus (in the Earliest Gospel)?

Post by Giuseppe »

A little experiment of mind:

Assume that the Earliest Gospel reports that only the Romans crucified Jesus.

The legitimate question, in this case, is it the following?

Is it a historical fact the Roman crucifixion of Jesus?

...or is it this:

Do the Romans kill Jesus because Jesus proclaims himself the king of the Jews, or because the Romans believe (wrongly) that Jesus is the king of the Jews?

Is the latter question a more legitimate question than the former?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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arnoldo
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Re: What if only the Romans killed Jesus (in the Earliest Gospel)?

Post by arnoldo »

The Roman Emperor Julian didn't even consider that question.
Yet Jesus, who won over the least worthy of you, has been known by name for but little more than three hundred years: and during his lifetime he accomplished nothing worth hearing of, unless anyone thinks that to heal crooked and blind men and to exorcise those who were possessed by evil demons in the villages of Bethsaida and Bethany can be classed as a mighty achievement. As for purity of life you do not know whether he so much as mentioned it; but you emulate the rages and the bitterness of the Jews, overturning temples and altars,63 and you slaughtered not only those of us who remained true to the teachings of their fathers, but also men who were as much astray as yourselves, heretics,64 because they did not wail over the corpse 65 in the same fashion as yourselves. But these are rather your own doings; for nowhere did either Jesus or Paul hand down to you such commands. The reason for this is that they never even hoped that you would one day attain to such power as you have; for they were content if they could delude maidservants and slaves, and through them the women, and men like Cornelius 66 and Sergius.67 But if you can show me that one of these men is mentioned by the well-known writers of that time,----these events happened in the reign of Tiberius or Claudius,----then you may consider that I speak falsely about all matters. |379]
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/julia ... 1_text.htm

Why didn't he consider your question important?
Giuseppe
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Re: What if only the Romans killed Jesus (in the Earliest Gospel)?

Post by Giuseppe »

Facts in the Earliest Gospel:
  • Jesus is killed only by the Romans: please ignore Judas, the sinedrites and the Jews;
  • Jesus is condemned because the accusation is that Jesus is the king of the Jews.
The implication:

1) if the Romans are innocent killers, then:
  • it is false the accusation: that Jesus is the king of the Jews
  • Satan can't be behind the Romans, since otherwise Satan would be innocent just as the Romans, insofar both believe that Jesus is the king of Jews, when Jesus is not the king of Jews.
Hence, who moves the Romans to believe that Jesus is the king of Jews, even knowing in advance that Jesus is not the king of Jews, is not Satan, but the god of the Jews.

Otherwise:

2) the Romans are intrinsically evil killers.

Hence, Satan is directly inside them, and not only behind them.

The accusation is true: Jesus is the king of Jews.

The Father of Jesus is YHWH.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
lsayre
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Re: What if only the Romans killed Jesus (in the Earliest Gospel)?

Post by lsayre »

Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 19:28

What is odd here is that Judas was among this group of 12. Did (as Bart Ehrman suggests) Judas spill the beans to the Roman authorities? If not, then why did Pontius Pilot ask Jesus if he was the King of the Jews?
klewis
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Re: What if only the Romans killed Jesus (in the Earliest Gospel)?

Post by klewis »

Matthew 19:28 is a product of parallel formation:

A(19:23-24) 19:23 it will be hard for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.(19:23) (τὴν βασιλείαν τῶν οὐρανῶν)
B(19:25) 19:25 Who then can be saved? (19:25) (τίς ἄρα δύαται σωθῆναι)
C(19:26) 19:26 for God all things are possible. (19:26)
B'(19:27) 19:27 What will there be for us? (19:27) (τί ἄρα ἔσται ἡμῖν)
A'(19:28-30) 19:28 will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.(19:28)" (θρόνου)

Source: http://www.bible.literarystructure.info ... ope_e.html

This is the case the writing the local chiasmus and ignoring the greater chiasmus (the Gospel of Matthew itself). It is a common mistake when the mechanism for writing is Hebrew poetry. I can show hundreds of such examples.
Giuseppe
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Re: What if only the Romans killed Jesus (in the Earliest Gospel)?

Post by Giuseppe »

lsayre wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:27 pmDid (as Bart Ehrman suggests) Judas spill the beans to the Roman authorities? If not, then why did Pontius Pilot ask Jesus if he was the King of the Jews?
no, no. I am starting here from the premise that the Earliest Gospel is the following:
Pilate ask: are you the king of the Jews?
Jesus replies: you say.
Pilate crucified Jesus.

(Only that. Nothing about Judas or the sinedrites behind Pilate. Jesus is simply arrested by Roman soldiers and moved before Pilate).

If Pilate is innocent, then the true answer of Jesus is:
You say, I don't.

Hence who has deceived Pilate to believe that Jesus is the king of the Jews can't be Satan, because Satan is the traditional enemy of the god of the Jews (and of the his Messiah), therefore he can't be the enemy of one who is not the king of the Jews.

The conclusion is that if Pilate is innocent, then the his instigator against Jesus (by the false accusation that Jesus is the king of the Jews) can only be the same god of the Jews.

Otherwise, if Pilate is intrinsically evil, then the his instigator against Jesus is possessing directly the his heart. This instigator is surely Satan and the sense is:

Pilate ask: are you the king of the Jews?
Jesus replies: you say, and I confirm: I am the king of the Jews.
Pilate crucified Jesus.

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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