2 Timothy 1:9-10: pro chronōn aiōniōn... ...the crucifixion itself?

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Giuseppe
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2 Timothy 1:9-10: pro chronōn aiōniōn... ...the crucifixion itself?

Post by Giuseppe »


The passage pertinent to Tim’s query, and to my own examination of the question of when Jesus was conceived to have performed his act of redemption, is 2 Timothy 1:9-10, for it seems to present the concept that Jesus performed that act “before time began,” (pro chronōn aiōniōn, lit., “before times eternal”). The meaning of that Greek phrase is unclear; biblical commentators cannot agree on just what the writer has in mind here. (See The Jesus Puzzle, p.118-119.) But it seems to be speaking of a dimension that lies outside or before the span of world history, the spiritual sphere of God. The question is, what is it that took place there? Here is the layout of the passage, and I’ll note the grammatical ambiguity I referred to earlier which is entailed in it, an ambiguity which in fact has an effect on our interpretation of the issue being discussed.

http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/jesuspuzzle/rfset28.htm#Tim

8 ...the gospel according to the power of God [theou, in the genitive case]
9 the one having saved [tou sōsantos, in the genitive case, referring back to “God”]
us and called us to holiness,
not from any merit of ours but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time
[lit., before times eternal, pro chronōn aiōniōn],
10 but now manifested [i.e., God’s grace] by the revelation [epiphaneias]
of our Savior, Christ Jesus [Xristou Iēsou, in the genitive],
having abrogated [katargēsantos, in the genitive] death
and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel...

In the link above, Earl Doherty gives an interesting analysis of the text.

Can the text be interpreted as saying that the salvation of "us" was before the creation of the world, by the death of Jesus? While only now the effects of that mythological death are visibles, by revelations, etc ?

I suspect that, to exorcize that valid question about the when of the crucifixion, the interpolator added, in 1 Timothy (presumably shown as from the same author of 2 Timothy), the following claim:

In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you

(1 Timothy 6:13)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: 2 Timothy 1:9-10: pro chronōn aiōniōn... ...the crucifixion itself?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:11 am
The passage pertinent to Tim’s query, and to my own examination of the question of when Jesus was conceived to have performed his act of redemption, is 2 Timothy 1:9-10, for it seems to present the concept that Jesus performed that act “before time began,” (pro chronōn aiōniōn, lit., “before times eternal”). The meaning of that Greek phrase is unclear; biblical commentators cannot agree on just what the writer has in mind here. (See The Jesus Puzzle, p.118-119.) But it seems to be speaking of a dimension that lies outside or before the span of world history, the spiritual sphere of God. The question is, what is it that took place there? Here is the layout of the passage, and I’ll note the grammatical ambiguity I referred to earlier which is entailed in it, an ambiguity which in fact has an effect on our interpretation of the issue being discussed.

http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/jesuspuzzle/rfset28.htm#Tim

8 ...the gospel according to the power of God [theou, in the genitive case]
9 the one having saved [tou sōsantos, in the genitive case, referring back to “God”]
us and called us to holiness,
not from any merit of ours but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time
[lit., before times eternal, pro chronōn aiōniōn],
10 but now manifested [i.e., God’s grace] by the revelation [epiphaneias]
of our Savior, Christ Jesus [Xristou Iēsou, in the genitive],
having abrogated [katargēsantos, in the genitive] death
and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel...

In the link above, Earl Doherty gives an interesting analysis of the text.

Can the text be interpreted as saying that the salvation of "us" was before the creation of the world, by the death of Jesus? While only now the effects of that mythological death are visibles, by revelations, etc ?

I suspect that, to exorcize that valid question about the when of the crucifixion, the interpolator added, in 1 Timothy (presumably shown as from the same author of 2 Timothy), the following claim:

In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you

(1 Timothy 6:13)
Robert M. Price makes a case, based on a seminal essay by Friedrich Schleiermacher, for 1 Timothy having come from a different pen than 2 Timothy + Titus.
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Giuseppe
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Re: 2 Timothy 1:9-10: pro chronōn aiōniōn... ...the crucifixion itself?

Post by Giuseppe »

Interesting what Bob Price says (in the last page of the link above):

Speaking of opponents, the author of 2 Timothy (3:8) compares the pesky Judaizers with the Egyptian sorcerer-priests who counterfeited Moses’ miracles in Pharaoh’s court. Apocryphal tradition had reduced their number to two and named them Jannes and Jambres (just as it would soon name the two thieves crucified with Jesus Demas and Gestas)

(my bold)


I read somewhere (I go a lot to memory here) that the Serpent built by Moses had the function to contrast the serpents/sticks of the Egyptian sorcerers. The Gnostics claimed that the Serpent used by Moses was Jesus. Possibly it is this to have caused prof Price to do the analogy between the 2 sorcerers mentioned in 2 Timothy 3:8 and the two thieves crucified with Jesus.

The sense is clear: Jesus is the true Serpent raised on the cross, differently from the two Serpents crucified with him.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: 2 Timothy 1:9-10: pro chronōn aiōniōn... ...the crucifixion itself?

Post by Giuseppe »

The function of the titulus crucis is to dissipate any possible doubt about the (otherwise: very dangerous) identity of that Serpent: he is (has to be necessarily!) the king of the Jews.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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