What if Paul never perceived Jesus as a god ...

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
lsayre
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What if Paul never perceived Jesus as a god ...

Post by lsayre » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:17 am

... and to Paul the word kyrios simply meant king? After all, Jesus was condemned to death not for being perceived to be a lord in the sense of being a god, but rather for being specifically the king of the Jews. How much would things change if everywhere in which Paul refers to Jesus or Christ as Lord within the letters generally accepted to have been written by him, kyrios is read as King? How long would Paul have remained on this earth to spread his gospel if he had gone around directly proclaiming Jesus to be the King of the Jews?

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Jax
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Re: What if Paul never perceived Jesus as a god ...

Post by Jax » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:39 am

I think Paul refers to Jesus as Master. And himself as Slave of his Master Jesus the Messiah. Does Paul ever call Jesus a God? Or just a Son of God.

AFAIK there is no hint of Jesus being a King of the Jews in Paul.

lsayre
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Re: What if Paul never perceived Jesus as a god ...

Post by lsayre » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:58 am

Jax wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:39 am
AFAIK there is no hint of Jesus being a King of the Jews in Paul.
I believe I addressed this in the OP.

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Jax
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Re: What if Paul never perceived Jesus as a god ...

Post by Jax » Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:56 am

lsayre wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:58 am
Jax wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:39 am
AFAIK there is no hint of Jesus being a King of the Jews in Paul.
I believe I addressed this in the OP.
Actually, in your post you said "After all, Jesus was condemned to death not for being perceived to be a lord in the sense of being a god, but rather for being specifically the king of the Jews." This implies that you think that Paul conceived Jesus as being King of the Jews, something that he never says or implies and is only introduced by Mark in a story much later.

From Paul we have no idea whatsoever why Jesus was killed. Or when, or by whom.

robert j
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Re: What if Paul never perceived Jesus as a god ...

Post by robert j » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:38 pm

Jax wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:56 am

From Paul we have no idea whatsoever why Jesus was killed. Or when, or by whom.
"No idea whatsoever" may be just a bit too strong here. Paul did write that his Jesus Christ was killed at some non-explicit time within the current “age/aeon” by some non-explicit “rulers” that didn't understand the hidden wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 2:6-8).

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Jax
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Re: What if Paul never perceived Jesus as a god ...

Post by Jax » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:12 pm

robert j wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:38 pm
Jax wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:56 am

From Paul we have no idea whatsoever why Jesus was killed. Or when, or by whom.
"No idea whatsoever" may be just a bit too strong here. Paul did write that his Jesus Christ was killed at some non-explicit time within the current “age/aeon” by some non-explicit “rulers” that didn't understand the hidden wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 2:6-8).
Wow! Yeah! My bad. That clears everything up.

lsayre
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Re: What if Paul never perceived Jesus as a god ...

Post by lsayre » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:36 pm

What if one of Paul's greatest leaps of faith (or perhaps his only leap) was in transitioning from a position of radically opposing the thought of Jesus as being the King of the Jews, to one of accepting this position as one of Jesus post resurrection exhalation, albeit with sufficient reason whereby not to get himself killed by openly and directly proclaiming it? And if calling Jesus "Lord" was his means of implying "King of the Jews" in a stealth manner somewhat more commensurate with flying under the Roman radar? And if thereby he never made the leap of recognizing Jesus as being exhalted to a position of equivalence with God or with in any way actually being a god. Such that he could rightly still proclaim the Shema, as he occasionally did.

robert j
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Re: What if Paul never perceived Jesus as a god ...

Post by robert j » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:48 pm

Jax wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:12 pm
robert j wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:38 pm
Jax wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:56 am

From Paul we have no idea whatsoever why Jesus was killed. Or when, or by whom.
"No idea whatsoever" may be just a bit too strong here. Paul did write that his Jesus Christ was killed at some non-explicit time within the current “age/aeon” by some non-explicit “rulers” that didn't understand the hidden wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 2:6-8).
Wow! Yeah! My bad. That clears everything up.
"No idea whatsoever"? The passage in 1 Corinthians does provide some answer for each of your questions --- when, by whom, and why.

Clearly not to your satisfaction, but if you seek an answer that "clears everything up", you are pursuing the wrong subject.

This passage in 1 Corinthians may very well provide some valuable clues to just what Paul found in the Jewish Scriptures that could shed greater light on those questions --- or better, perhaps passages in the Scriptures that Paul plucked-out of context and molded to his needs, as he was prone to do.

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Jax
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Re: What if Paul never perceived Jesus as a god ...

Post by Jax » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:05 pm

robert j wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:48 pm
Jax wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:12 pm
robert j wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:38 pm
Jax wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:56 am

From Paul we have no idea whatsoever why Jesus was killed. Or when, or by whom.
"No idea whatsoever" may be just a bit too strong here. Paul did write that his Jesus Christ was killed at some non-explicit time within the current “age/aeon” by some non-explicit “rulers” that didn't understand the hidden wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 2:6-8).
Wow! Yeah! My bad. That clears everything up.
"No idea whatsoever"? The passage in 1 Corinthians does provide some answer for each of your questions --- when, by whom, and why.

Clearly not to your satisfaction, but if you seek an answer that "clears everything up", you are pursuing the wrong subject.

This passage in 1 Corinthians may very well provide some valuable clues to just what Paul found in the Jewish Scriptures that could shed greater light on those questions --- or better, perhaps passages in the Scriptures that Paul plucked-out of context and molded to his needs, as he was prone to do.
I am in fact not seeking an answer that clears everything up, that I find unlikely, too much time has elapsed and we have too little information on the subject to make that likely IMO.

1 Cor 2:6-16 is probably not even Paul but rather someone later trying to make sense of Paul and the rest of it.

This is where, in my opinion, we will always fall down. We don't even know what is Paul or not. Nor can we ever with what we have now.

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Jax
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Re: What if Paul never perceived Jesus as a god ...

Post by Jax » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:13 pm

lsayre wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:36 pm
What if one of Paul's greatest leaps of faith (or perhaps his only leap) was in transitioning from a position of radically opposing the thought of Jesus as being the King of the Jews, to one of accepting this position as one of Jesus post resurrection exhalation, albeit with sufficient reason whereby not to get himself killed by openly and directly proclaiming it? And if calling Jesus "Lord" was his means of implying "King of the Jews" in a stealth manner somewhat more commensurate with flying under the Roman radar? And if thereby he never made the leap of recognizing Jesus as being exhalted to a position of equivalence with God or with in any way actually being a god. Such that he could rightly still proclaim the Shema, as he occasionally did.
We can play "What if" all day. Giuseppe does it all of the time.

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