John and not Jesus satisfied the 4000

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Giuseppe
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John and not Jesus satisfied the 4000

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:37 am

If you remove the part in red as interpolation from Joshua 9:6-9:

Then they went to Joshua in the camp at Gilgal and said to him and the Israelites, “We have come from a distant country; make a treaty with us.” 7 The Israelites said to the Hivites, “But perhaps you live near us, so how can we make a treaty with you?” 8 “We are your servants,” they said to Joshua. But Joshua asked, “Who are you and where do you come from?” 9 They answered: “Your servants have come from a very distant country because of the fame of the LORD your God. For we have heard reports of him: all that he did in Egypt,

...it becomes more clear who is the giver of breads for 4000:

During those days another large crowd gathered. Since they had nothing to eat, Jesus called his disciples to him and said, 2 “I have compassion for these people; they have already been with me three days and have nothing to eat. 3 If I send them home hungry, they will collapse on the way, because some of them have come a long distance.

4 His disciples answered, “But where in this remote place can anyone get enough bread to feed them?”

5 “How many loaves do you have?” Jesus asked.

“Seven,” they replied.

6 He told the crowd to sit down on the ground. When he had taken the seven loaves and given thanks, he broke them and gave them to his disciples to distribute to the people, and they did so. 7 They had a few small fish as well; he gave thanks for them also and told the disciples to distribute them. 8 The people ate and were satisfied. Afterward the disciples picked up seven basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. 9 About four thousand were present.

(Mark 8:1-9)

The same person who had to prepare the "way":

“Behold, I send my messenger before your face,
who will prepare your way,
the voice of one crying in the wilderness:

(Mark 1:2)

Without the interpolation in red, the breads are given not to satisfy 4000 people who come from a distant country, but to sent the 4000 to "the way".

The same function of the baptism of grace given by John.

7000 means universality, no distinction between Greeks and Jews.

That was the "baptism of John" only known by Apollos, who had to be "corrected", i.e. judaized by informing him about the "baptism of Jesus", i.e. de facto replacing John with Jesus:

26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately

(Acts 18:26)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: John and not Jesus satisfied the 4000

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:06 am


I have compassion for these people

refers also to John, meaning "YHWH has compassion".
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
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Re: John and not Jesus satisfied the 4000

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:38 am


And now, O Tat, God’s Image 1 hath been sketched for thee, as far as it can be 2; and if thou wilt attentively dwell on it and observe it with thy heart’s eyes, believe me, son, thou’lt find the Path that leads above

http://gnosis.org/library/grs-mead/TGH-v2/th209.html
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: John and not Jesus satisfied the 4000

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:53 am

I wonder if the same reversal (the number 7 tranformed in 12; people who have to go along the "way" are transformed in people who come from a distant place) is in action in Mark 4:11-12. There Jesus condemns the outsiders and exalts the insiders, contra factum that in the rest of the story Jesus de facto condemns continually the insiders and exalts the outsiders.

In Mark 4:11-12 the division is between Christians and not-Christians. The original division was really between the Christians (a minority) and the Jews (the majority). The 12 are described poorly because their elitistic claims, as originally not-Jews, have to be frustrated as, now, Jews.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: John and not Jesus satisfied the 4000

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:11 am

If the original story had only seven breads that were given to the crowd to make them go along the "way" in all the directions of the world, then the interpolator had transformed this story in one where 12 breads were given to people to make them return to their places of origin, indebted to who gave them the breads: the 12 apostles, i.e. Israel.

I remember which is the original story:

During those days
another large crowd gathered.
Since they had nothing to eat,
Jesus called his disciples to him
and said,
2 “I have compassion for these people;
they have nothing to eat.
3 If I send them home hungry,
they will collapse on the way
4 His disciples answered,
“But how can anyone get enough bread to feed them?”
5 “How many loaves do you have?” Jesus asked.
“Seven,” they replied.
6 He had taken the seven loaves
and given thanks,
he broke them
and gave them to his disciples to distribute to the people,
and they did so.
The people ate and were satisfied.
After he had sent them away,

The disciples have already the knowledge necessary to salvation (the 7 breads are already in their hands). By becoming apostles, their knowledge is given to the crowd. As result, the crowd doesn't collapse on the way but will have the salvation.


There was so a rivalry between the "Church of the Seven" (first story) and the "Church of the Twelwe" (second story).

The first Church preceded clearly the second Church.

But against who, precisely, the Church of the Seven was going ?

Against who was the original story invented?

The "bread" of salvation was necessary to ascend to heavens. As provisions for the journey of the soul towards its celestial homeland. Without that "bread", the Archons would have prohibited the passage along the way.

Hence what was that "bread"?

It is something that was unknown in the past:

Deuteronomy 8:3
He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord.

Hence the 7 breads were the manna. But the identity was not still perfectly clear. Hence the addition of the fishes.

Numbers 11 identifies the manna with fishes:

5 We remember the fish we ate in Egypt at no cost—also the cucumbers, melons, leeks, onions and garlic. 6 But now we have lost our appetite; we never see anything but this manna!”
7 The manna was like coriander seed and looked like resin. 8 The people went around gathering it, and then ground it in a hand mill or crushed it in a mortar. They cooked it in a pot or made it into loaves. And it tasted like something made with olive oil. 9 When the dew settled on the camp at night, the manna also came down.
10 Moses heard the people of every family wailing at the entrance to their tents. The Lord became exceedingly angry, and Moses was troubled. 11 He asked the Lord, “Why have you brought this trouble on your servant? What have I done to displease you that you put the burden of all these people on me? 12 Did I conceive all these people? Did I give them birth? Why do you tell me to carry them in my arms, as a nurse carries an infant, to the land you promised on oath to their ancestors?
...

31 Now a wind went out from the Lord and drove quail in from the sea. It scattered them up to two cubits deep all around the camp, as far as a day’s walk in any direction.

The narrative has become Jewish.


Hence, on a point the Judaizer had seen correctly: the bread was the knowledge of salvation. Gnosis.

And Jesus said: O Father, see!
[Behold] the struggle still of ills on earth!
Far from Thy Breath away she wanders!
She seeks to flee the bitter Chaos,
And knows not how she shall pass through.
Wherefore, send me, O Father!
Seals in my hands, I will descend;
Through Æons universal will I make a Path;
Through Mysteries all I'll open up a Way!
And Forms of Gods will I display;
The secrets of the Holy Path I will hand on,
And call them Gnosis.

In the Naassene Hymn, Jesus doesn't pray the disciples so that they give the gnosis. Jesus prayed directly the Father so that he can send the gnosis on the earth by Jesus.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: John and not Jesus satisfied the 4000

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:18 pm


the Naassene Hymnthe original feeding scene in proto-MarkWhat is in common

And Jesus said: O Father, see!
[Behold] the struggle still of ills on earth!
Far from Thy Breath away she wanders!


During those days
another large crowd gathered.
Since they had nothing to eat, Jesus called his disciples to him
and said,
2 “I have compassion for these people;
they have nothing to eat.

Jesus has piety about the humanity. But then he is "John": "YHWH gives grace"

She seeks to flee the bitter Chaos,
And knows not how she shall pass through.


If I send them home hungry,
they will collapse on the way

the humanity should ascend to heaven along the Way to his celestial homeland

Wherefore, send me, O Father!
Seals in my hands, I will descend;
Through Æons universal will I make a Path;
Through Mysteries all I'll open up a Way!
And Forms of Gods will I display;


4 His disciples answered,
“But how can anyone get enough bread to feed them?”
5 “How many loaves do you have?” Jesus asked.
“Seven,” they replied

the resistance by the disciples is the same obstacle found by the deity Jesus to meet the humanity: the seven Archons (among them there is the god of the Jews) wanted to prohibit any communication between heaven and earth in both the directions. This is the real reason of the apostles being described negatively in proto-Mark.

And Forms of Gods will I display;
The secrets of the Holy Path I will hand on,
And call them Gnosis.


6 He had taken the seven loaves
and given thanks,
he broke them
and gave them to his disciples to distribute to the people,
and they did so.
The people ate and were satisfied.
After he had sent them away,

Jesus gives the gnosis of salvation: the "bread" judaized by "Mark" as the OT manna.

This table is evidence of the original intention of proto-Mark ("the Church of the Seven"): to judaize Jesus beyond any reasonable doubt.

My view about why a celestial Jesus was euhemerized by “Mark”:

After the 70 CE and even more so in the later years, a threat was more and more evident:

1 John 2:22 :
Who is a liar but he that DENIES that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son

To identify Jesus with the Jewish Christ beyond any reasonable doubt, the life of Jesus had to be placed in the recent times, since the common belief was that only in the last times the Messiah will would be appeared. Hence the apocalypticism was not the reason to place Jesus in recent times. The need of pointing the Jewishness of the Jesus (against the his increasing deniers) was the cause that placed Jesus in the recent times, in conformity with that common belief relative to the Jewish Christ.

Note that in Paul there is not still evidence of an insistence and emphasis on the Jewishness of Jesus. Even if for Paul Jesus WAS the Jewish Messiah. What was recent for Paul (a sincere apocalypticist) was the revelation of the Messiah, not the his death.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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