dewitness VS Earl Doherty (was: Historicity of Jesus...)

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
dewitness
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Re: Historicity of Jesus - the Talking Points

Post by dewitness » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:37 pm

Eric wrote:Other sources include the Qu-Ran, which they believe Jesus teachings were that of a prophet.
The Qu-ran is a very very late source and is not really helpful in the historical Jesus argument.

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Blood
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Re: dewitness VS Earl Doherty

Post by Blood » Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:09 am

dewitness wrote:
In fact, Jesus cult writers of antiquity that mention the Pauline Corpus and Jesus completely debunk Doherty's never on earth Archon crucified Jesus.

I have already debunked Doherty.

1. In Acts of the Apostles, Jesus was killed by the Jews--Not Archons.

2. In the Gospels and Acts Jesus was killed on earth--Not in some kind of lunar realm.. See the NT Canon

3. Apologetic writers Aristides, Justin, Hippolytus, Tertullian, Origen, Lactantius claimed the Jews Killed Jesus--Not Archons.
I agree. "The Jews killed Jesus" is the most basic tenet to the Jesus cult. It's probably the weakest aspect of Doherty's thesis.

The earth is the "sub-lunar realm." The Jews are the "archons" (also referred to vaguely as "people" in Romans 1). "The Jews" have to be seen as the enemy in order for the Christians to justify their theft of the Jewish scriptures.

And of course there's always 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16.

"You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone..."

Which Doherty and Carrier weakly hand wave away as an "interpolation," thus engaging in the same specious apologetics that they criticize others for.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp

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Kapyong
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Re: dewitness VS Earl Doherty

Post by Kapyong » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:54 pm

Gday,
dewitness wrote: Doherty's never on earth Jesus crucified by Archons is extremely easy to debunk because there is no actual evidence for such a teaching in Jesus cult writings.
Nonsense.
Paul says Jesus was crucified by the archons.

Kapyong

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Blood
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Re: dewitness VS Earl Doherty

Post by Blood » Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:21 pm

Kapyong wrote:Gday,
dewitness wrote: Doherty's never on earth Jesus crucified by Archons is extremely easy to debunk because there is no actual evidence for such a teaching in Jesus cult writings.
Nonsense.
Paul says Jesus was crucified by the archons.

Kapyong
The archons are the Jews.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp

dewitness
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Re: dewitness VS Earl Doherty

Post by dewitness » Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:32 pm

Kapyong wrote:Gday,
dewitness wrote: Doherty's never on earth Jesus crucified by Archons is extremely easy to debunk because there is no actual evidence for such a teaching in Jesus cult writings.
Nonsense.
Paul says Jesus was crucified by the archons.

Kapyong
Please, your claim is a blatant fallacy.

Please First Read, the Pauline Corpus.--the Jews Killed the Lord Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 2.14-16
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us,and they please not God, and are contrary to all men.
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved , to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
In the Pauline Corpus Jesus was on earth and Killed by the Jews.

The wrath of God fell on the very Jews because they killed the Lord Jesus.

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Blood
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Re: dewitness VS Earl Doherty (was: Historicity of Jesus...)

Post by Blood » Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:52 pm

Romans 1 (RSV) is part of the same anti-Jewish polemic that informs and colors 1 Thessalonians, thus further weakening Doherty's thesis. The Pauline writer here is not referring to "pagans," contrary to widespread apologetics, but to the Jews, those who "suppress the truth," because YHWH has "shown it to them" (NOT pagans -- the Lord never showed them anything). The Jews "knew YHWH, but they did not honor him." A major purpose of the Pauline writers was to destroy any Jewish legitimacy over the possession of YHWH or the scriptures.
Paul of Tarsus wrote:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. 29 They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp

dewitness
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Re: dewitness VS Earl Doherty (was: Historicity of Jesus...)

Post by dewitness » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:09 pm

John Chrysostom did Homilies of 1 Thessalonians 2 and did address verses 14-16.

Chrysostom referred to the Jews when he claimed "they have slain Christ.

Chrysostom's Homilies on 1 Thessalonians 2
They have slain Christ and the prophets, they insult God, they are the common enemies of the world, they banish us, when coming for their salvation.

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Kapyong
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Re: dewitness VS Earl Doherty (was: Historicity of Jesus...)

Post by Kapyong » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:00 pm

Gday,

Paul specifically SAYS "archons", which makes aa / dewitness' claim incorrect.

Some people interpret this to mean the Jews,
others (not just Doherty) interpret this to mean spiritual powers (the prince of powers of the air.)

Kapyong

dewitness
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Re: dewitness VS Earl Doherty (was: Historicity of Jesus...)

Post by dewitness » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:15 am

Kapyong wrote:Gday,

Paul specifically SAYS "archons", which makes aa / dewitness' claim incorrect.

Some people interpret this to mean the Jews,
others (not just Doherty) interpret this to mean spiritual powers (the prince of powers of the air.)

Kapyong
Again, you present fallacies. I have examined over 25 versions of 1 Corinthians and none use the word Archons meaning "spiritual powers"--NONE.

See http://www.biblestudytools.com/1-corint ... mpare.html

Plus, there are Zero Christian writers of antiquity that support Doherty's spiritual crucifixion.

I can show you multiple writings including the Pauline Corpus that claim Jesus was killed by the Jews.

1. 1 Thessalonians 2. specifically identified the killers of Jesus as Jews. The Jews are not spiritual powers--they are considered human beings universally.

1 Thessalonians 2
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us
2. The author of Acts the Jews killed Jesus.

Acts 2.36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified , both Lord and Christ.
3. Aristides claimed the Jews killed Jesus.

Aristides' First Apology
...But he himself was pierced by the Jews, and he died and was buried...
4. Justin claimed the Jews killed Jesus.

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho
Accordingly, these things have happened to you in fairness and justice, for you have slain the Just One, and His prophets before Him..
5. Hippolytus claimed the Jews Killed Jesus.

Hippolytus' Refutation Against All Heresies
But why, O prophet, tell us, and for what reason, was the temple made desolate? ........ it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor
6. Origen claimed the Jews killed Jesus.

Origen's Against Celsus 1
..... the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put to death Christ
7. Lactantius claimed the Jews killed Jesus.

Lactantius' the death of the Persecutors
.... I find it written, Jesus Christ was crucified by the Jews.
8. Chrysostom claimed the Jews killed Jesus.

Chrysostom's Homily on 1 Thessalonians
They have slain Christ and the prophets, they insult God, they are the common enemies of the world...

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