Do O'Neill and McGrath ignore or deny Valentinian Mythicists?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
theeternaliam
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:33 am

Re: Do O'Neill and McGrath ignore or deny Valentinian Mythicists?

Post by theeternaliam » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:43 pm

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:20 pm
theeternaliam wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:16 am


The real physical fact would be Jesus's earthly crucifixion. NOT the celestial crucifixion. In fact, I think you shouldn't use the word, "celestial" because that implies in outer space amongst the stars. Rather, the word, "spiritual" would be more accurate because it occurs in the spiritual realms
The cross that the Valentinians allude to is the same as Plato and ancient astronomers observed as a cross in space. "Spiritual" is not more accurate. Aether would be better, but again the cross existed in the universe, so celestial is acceptable.
What you are alluding to is just the physical manifestation of a spiritual idea. Which is what plato is all about. So, yes, perhaps Horos is manifested as a "cross in space", but the more perfect Horos would be in the World of Ideas. Where neither moth nor rust can corrupt.

Am I wrong or have you misunderstood plato?

Cause it appears to me you misunderstand the valeninians.

Joseph D. L.
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 am

Re: Do O'Neill and McGrath ignore or deny Valentinian Mythicists?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:00 am

theeternaliam wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:43 pm


What you are alluding to is just the physical manifestation of a spiritual idea. Which is what plato is all about. So, yes, perhaps Horos is manifested as a "cross in space", but the more perfect Horos would be in the World of Ideas. Where neither moth nor rust can corrupt.

Am I wrong or have you misunderstood plato?

Cause it appears to me you misunderstand the valeninians.
I wouldn't say Plato was spiritual. Nonetheless, how he describes the creation of the universe in Timeaus indicates that the cross is located in space, and academics have concluded it to be the cross of the zodiac and the ecliptic. This cross is actually common in the ancient world.

The Valentinians are heavily inspired by Platonism and this idea. Even if they took this cross to be the portal to the Pleroma, it was still located in our universe.

Joseph D. L.
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 am

Re: Do O'Neill and McGrath ignore or deny Valentinian Mythicists?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:04 am

theeternaliam wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:38 pm
That's just, like, yer opinion, man.
Which would seem to have little practical benefit for me.

You make a bold, presumptuous claim, as many many men do who believe they know the truth of the scriptures.

But, as I'm a sincere seeker of knowledge of truth I would be fair and consider the possibility of your claim, though yer presumptuous sense of certainty gives me the impression it comes from the proud rulers
To be honest, I don't really care how this benefits you. Truth doesn't help, nor does it feel.

The truth about the scriptures? Generally speaking, they are a load of bollocks. If you want to understand them, you have to understand the environment they were written in.

theeternaliam
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:33 am

Re: Do O'Neill and McGrath ignore or deny Valentinian Mythicists?

Post by theeternaliam » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:31 pm

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:04 am
theeternaliam wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:38 pm
That's just, like, yer opinion, man.
Which would seem to have little practical benefit for me.

You make a bold, presumptuous claim, as many many men do who believe they know the truth of the scriptures.

But, as I'm a sincere seeker of knowledge of truth I would be fair and consider the possibility of your claim, though yer presumptuous sense of certainty gives me the impression it comes from the proud rulers
To be honest, I don't really care how this benefits you. Truth doesn't help, nor does it feel.

The truth about the scriptures? Generally speaking, they are a load of bollocks. If you want to understand them, you have to understand the environment they were written in.
There's more to it than that. You get what you put in. Am I wrong?

theeternaliam
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:33 am

Re: Do O'Neill and McGrath ignore or deny Valentinian Mythicists?

Post by theeternaliam » Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:19 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:00 am
theeternaliam wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:43 pm


What you are alluding to is just the physical manifestation of a spiritual idea. Which is what plato is all about. So, yes, perhaps Horos is manifested as a "cross in space", but the more perfect Horos would be in the World of Ideas. Where neither moth nor rust can corrupt.

Am I wrong or have you misunderstood plato?

Cause it appears to me you misunderstand the valentinians.
I wouldn't say Plato was spiritual. Nonetheless, how he describes the creation of the universe in Timeaus indicates that the cross is located in space, and academics have concluded it to be the cross of the zodiac and the ecliptic. This cross is actually common in the ancient world.

The Valentinians are heavily inspired by Platonism and this idea. Even if they took this cross to be the portal to the Pleroma, it was still located in our universe.
I think you are projecting your modern day ideas of science onto the platonists and valentinians. I think both of them were Idealist, that is the World of Ideas was more real than the World of forms. That's why platonists and valentinians and their kind were philosophers and not scientists or astronomers. Did they even really believe their cosmology as an accurate representation of actual, physical cosmology?
Last edited by theeternaliam on Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:24 am, edited 3 times in total.

theeternaliam
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:33 am

Re: Do O'Neill and McGrath ignore or deny Valentinian Mythicists?

Post by theeternaliam » Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:22 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:04 am
theeternaliam wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:38 pm
That's just, like, yer opinion, man.
Which would seem to have little practical benefit for me.

You make a bold, presumptuous claim, as many many men do who believe they know the truth of the scriptures.

But, as I'm a sincere seeker of knowledge of truth I would be fair and consider the possibility of your claim, though yer presumptuous sense of certainty gives me the impression it comes from the proud rulers
To be honest, I don't really care how this benefits you. Truth doesn't help, nor does it feel.

The truth about the scriptures? Generally speaking, they are a load of bollocks. If you want to understand them, you have to understand the environment they were written in.
And here I see you projecting your own self/beliefs onto Truth.
Truth doesn't help or feel?

You shall know the truth and it shall set you free.
How much more helpful can it get.

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