Why Jesus?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Why Jesus?

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:30 pm

Beresith Rabba (ch. 97) reads :

As the Israelites are innumerable, even so are the fishes ; as the Israelites will never die out on the earth, the fishes will never die out in their element. Only the son of a man named "Fish" could lead Israel into the Land of Promise, namely Joshuah ben Nun (=Fish), a descendant of Joseph

Robert Eisler wrote:

This coincidence is intentionally emphasised by the version of the Targum Onkelos, where the blessing is rendered : " May they be multiplied even as the fishes of the sea." On this version alone rests the Rabbinic theory that the Israelites as descendants of Joseph are protected for ever against the ' evil eye,' because Jacob has called them ' fishes of the sea ' ; for as the fishes are covered by the water (= the Law) and therefore proof against the evil eye, even so are the Israelites protected against every such influence.


Cp. J. Citron. 7zo-27. The descent from Joseph is mentioned here, because the Messiah, the re-born Joshuah, or in the Greek version Jesus, will again be a ' ben-Joseph ' ; in order to lead Israel into the Messianic Blessed Land, he will also have to be a ' ben-Nun,' a ' Son of Fish ' or quite as bar-nasha, ' son of man,' is in many places equivalent to the simple word ' man,' as ben-bahar is ' an ox,' ben-zo'n ' a sheep ' a 'Fish ' himself. This is beyond doubt the ultimate reason why Jesus the Nazarene is called the ' Fish ' in the early Christian mystery-language. Indeed the very Greek form lesous for Joshuah' is only chosen in order to imitate by the mystic psephos 888, obtained through ' this spelling (cp. above, p. 120 note), the equally peculiar Hebrew gematria. of Jehoshuah ben-Nun 555, and thus to make the name of the future Messiah really "a name which is above all names" (Phil. 2p). Cp. Arch. Bel. Wiss. xvi. 303.

https://ia800206.us.archive.org/27/item ... ucmf_1.pdf
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Why Jesus?

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:01 pm

Eisler connects the Fish with the suffering Messiah :

Cp. above, pp. 171 n. 1, 187 n. 1. I say, of the suffering Messiah, because I have come across a Midrashic tradition (Mech. Shira, 9 ; Sanhedr. 92b ; Pirke di R. Eliezer, xlviii.) reporting that Nun (=Fish) the father of Joshuah, a prominent Ephraimite, of whom the Bible itself does not contain any mention, was the leader of an attempted, but unsuccessful, departure of the Jews from Egypt, who found a violent death at the hands of the Egyptians. The Messiah ben Nun (=Ichthyus) may therefore well have been conceived also as a reincarnation of this mythic hero, who had suffered for the deliverance of his oppressed nation.

(my bold)



Ben assured me that Ephraim stands for Joseph, too:
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:05 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:58 am
I am reading what the mythicst J. K. Watson writes about the passage from ben Joseph to ben David:


in short, Joshua was from the tribe of Ephraim i.e. he was son of Joseph.
Yes. Everything I have written about Messiah ben Joseph/Ephraim lately has been contingent upon that fact.
Hence:

Messiah ben Joseph (suffering) = Messiah ben Ephraim = Messiah ben Nun = Messiah Nun = Messiah Fish.

The tradition of the suffering Messiah is connected someway with Joshua.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Why Jesus?

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:12 pm

Mekhiltha Shirah 9. Can someone quote this source?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Why Jesus?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:50 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:12 pm
Mekhiltha Shirah 9. Can someone quote this source?
I think this reference is referring to the Mekhilta d'Rabbi Yishmael, the Shirah section supposedly consisting of 15.1-21, but the numeration system in the reference does not seem to match the numeration system on Sefaria, which follows Exodus, chapter and verse. Therefore, I cannot tell for sure which passage(s) the author has in mind. I have found these two which seem relevant:

Exodus 13.17: "Variantly: "for the L rd said, etc.": This is the war of the sons of Ephraim, viz. (I Chronicles 7:20-21), and (Psalms 78:9-72). They transgressed the appointed time (for the redemption) and the oath, viz. (Genesis 50:25). "for the L rd said, etc.": So that they not see the bones of their brethren strewn in Philistia and return (to Egypt).

Exodus 15.14: "Quaking has seized the dwellers of Plasheth": Once the dwellers of Plasheth heard that Israel had entered the land, they said: They have come to take revenge for the sons of Ephraim, viz. (I Chronicles 7:20, etc.) and (Psalms 78:9) "And the sons of Ephraim, armed and carrying bows, were turned back in the day of battle." Why so? (Ibid. 10) (For) "they did not keep the covenant of G d and refused to walk in His law." And because they violated the term and the oath (viz. Numbers 14:44), they (the dwellers of Plasheth) said They have no other way (to enter the land) but by way of our land, and now they will come and rob us and lay waste our land.

But I am not sure whether there are others.
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Nathan
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Re: Why Jesus?

Post by Nathan » Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:47 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:50 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:12 pm
Mekhiltha Shirah 9. Can someone quote this source?
I think this reference is referring to the Mekhilta d'Rabbi Yishmael, the Shirah section supposedly consisting of 15.1-21, but the numeration system in the reference does not seem to match the numeration system on Sefaria, which follows Exodus, chapter and verse. Therefore, I cannot tell for sure which passage(s) the author has in mind. I have found these two which seem relevant:

Exodus 13.17: "Variantly: "for the L rd said, etc.": This is the war of the sons of Ephraim, viz. (I Chronicles 7:20-21), and (Psalms 78:9-72). They transgressed the appointed time (for the redemption) and the oath, viz. (Genesis 50:25). "for the L rd said, etc.": So that they not see the bones of their brethren strewn in Philistia and return (to Egypt).

Exodus 15.14: "Quaking has seized the dwellers of Plasheth": Once the dwellers of Plasheth heard that Israel had entered the land, they said: They have come to take revenge for the sons of Ephraim, viz. (I Chronicles 7:20, etc.) and (Psalms 78:9) "And the sons of Ephraim, armed and carrying bows, were turned back in the day of battle." Why so? (Ibid. 10) (For) "they did not keep the covenant of G d and refused to walk in His law." And because they violated the term and the oath (viz. Numbers 14:44), they (the dwellers of Plasheth) said They have no other way (to enter the land) but by way of our land, and now they will come and rob us and lay waste our land.

But I am not sure whether there are others.
Eisler's citation seems pretty confused. Ben, your first excerpt comes from Mekhilta Beshalach, a chapter sometimes called Shirah, but it's found in section 1, not 9. The second quote does appear in section 9, but that's from chapter Shirata, not Beshalach/Shirah.

I would also mention that Eisler seems to twist the evidence pretty badly. None of the texts he refers to actually mentions Nun or, for that matter, his son Joshua. Pirqe de-Rabbi Eliezer does refer to a person called Ganun (or Yagnun in some editions), who supposedly led the Ephraimites in their rebellion, but the Midrash never connects that person to Joshua, who, again, isn't even mentioned.

Ethan
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Re: Why Jesus?

Post by Ethan » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:45 pm

" בן־ is a patronymic prefix that equates with -ίδᾱς, -ίων, ίδης and so בן־נון (Ben-nun) could means νομίων "nomadic, pastoral, Numidian" cf. νομαδικός.

נין (Nin) means child in Job 18:19, from τέκνον "of youngsters, of young animals", this came τίκτω "bring into the world" also means "of fish, spawn" that cognates both גיד and ἰχθύς "fish", then בן־נון would be ἰχθυοειδής "fish-like" that appears only in Herodotus describing Persian infantrymen.

Herodotus 7.61
The men who served in the army were the following: the Persians were equipped in this way: they wore on their heads loose caps called tiaras, and on their bodies embroidered sleeved tunics, with scales of iron like the scales of fish in appearance and trousers on their legs; for shields they had wicker bucklers, with quivers hanging beneath them; they carried short spears, long bows, and reed arrows, and daggers that hung from the girdle by the right thigh.

The veterans of the Persian Empire became the Hebrews, alike the veterans of the Caesar's Civil War became Christians.
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Why Jesus?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:07 pm

Nathan wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:47 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:50 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:12 pm
Mekhiltha Shirah 9. Can someone quote this source?
I think this reference is referring to the Mekhilta d'Rabbi Yishmael, the Shirah section supposedly consisting of 15.1-21, but the numeration system in the reference does not seem to match the numeration system on Sefaria, which follows Exodus, chapter and verse. Therefore, I cannot tell for sure which passage(s) the author has in mind. I have found these two which seem relevant:

Exodus 13.17: "Variantly: "for the L rd said, etc.": This is the war of the sons of Ephraim, viz. (I Chronicles 7:20-21), and (Psalms 78:9-72). They transgressed the appointed time (for the redemption) and the oath, viz. (Genesis 50:25). "for the L rd said, etc.": So that they not see the bones of their brethren strewn in Philistia and return (to Egypt).

Exodus 15.14: "Quaking has seized the dwellers of Plasheth": Once the dwellers of Plasheth heard that Israel had entered the land, they said: They have come to take revenge for the sons of Ephraim, viz. (I Chronicles 7:20, etc.) and (Psalms 78:9) "And the sons of Ephraim, armed and carrying bows, were turned back in the day of battle." Why so? (Ibid. 10) (For) "they did not keep the covenant of G d and refused to walk in His law." And because they violated the term and the oath (viz. Numbers 14:44), they (the dwellers of Plasheth) said They have no other way (to enter the land) but by way of our land, and now they will come and rob us and lay waste our land.

But I am not sure whether there are others.
Eisler's citation seems pretty confused. Ben, your first excerpt comes from Mekhilta Beshalach, a chapter sometimes called Shirah, but it's found in section 1, not 9. The second quote does appear in section 9, but that's from chapter Shirata, not Beshalach/Shirah.
Thanks, Nathan. Very helpful.
I would also mention that Eisler seems to twist the evidence pretty badly.
I was definitely wondering about that.
None of the texts he refers to actually mentions Nun or, for that matter, his son Joshua. Pirqe de-Rabbi Eliezer does refer to a person called Ganun (or Yagnun in some editions), who supposedly led the Ephraimites in their rebellion, but the Midrash never connects that person to Joshua, who, again, isn't even mentioned.
Good to know. Thanks again!
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