The only crucifixion mentioned in Hebrews (hence in Paul, also) is of the corpse of Jesus

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The only crucifixion mentioned in Hebrews (hence in Paul, also) is of the corpse of Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:19 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:32 am
Psalm 96:10, as reported in the Vulgate, is an example of a Christian interpolation, being found only in Latin and not even in the Septuaginta:
Dicite in gentibus quia dominus regnavit a ligno

That is not the reading of the Vulgate. I dealt with this matter very briefly on this forum just recently.
Psalm 22:16 in the Greek version doesn't show so explicitly the cross.
Okay. So what? There is a huge literature on this topic, and a few stray comments on your part about it are hardly going to amount to much in comparison.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: The only crucifixion mentioned in Hebrews (hence in Paul, also) is of the corpse of Jesus

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:08 pm

Giuseppe is just a mentally retarded conspiracy theorist. You should just leave him to argue with himself, Ben.

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Re: The only crucifixion mentioned in Hebrews (hence in Paul, also) is of the corpse of Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:07 pm

I don't understand why the onus probandi is on myself to prove the authenticity of the passage.

We have also Ezekiel 9:4 mentioning a cross:
4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a tau upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.



So Barnabas 9:7-8:

For the scripture saith; And Abraham circumcised of his household eighteen males and three hundred. What then was the knowledge given unto him? Understand ye that He saith the eighteen first, and then after an interval three hundred In the eighteen 'I'
stands for ten, 'H' for eight. Here thou hast JESUS (IHSOYS). And because the cross in the 'T' was to have grace, He saith also three hundred. So He revealeth Jesus in the two letters, and in the remaining one the cross.

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: The only crucifixion mentioned in Hebrews (hence in Paul, also) is of the corpse of Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:17 pm

See where we find again the tau mentioned by Ezekiel:
They shall be saved at the time of the
Visitation whereas the others shall be delivered up to the sword when
the Anointed of Aaron and Israel shall come, as it came to pass at the time of the former Visitation concerning which God said by the hand of Ezekiel: They shall put a tau on the foreheads of those sigh and groan (Ezek. ix, 4). But the others were delivered up to the avenging sword of the Covenant

(Damascus Document 1:9-12)

...so the coming of the Messiah is connected with the apparition of a tau.

I think that even an idiot as Joseph D.L. is able to realize the point.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: The only crucifixion mentioned in Hebrews (hence in Paul, also) is of the corpse of Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:26 pm

The tau is also a reference to the power of YHWH shown at the end of the human History:

If only I had someone to hear my case! Here is my signature;

(Job 31:35)

The Hebrew reads more precisely:

Here is my tau.

The tau is the divine signature of the end of times.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: The only crucifixion mentioned in Hebrews (hence in Paul, also) is of the corpse of Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:35 pm

Note the irony of Mark 8:34:

Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me

The reference is to the sign TAU found on the foreheads of the saved people per Ezekiel 9:4.

That sign is referred implicitly also in Revelation 7:3-4:
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Remember that Joshua means ""It is YHWH who saves".
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: The only crucifixion mentioned in Hebrews (hence in Paul, also) is of the corpse of Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:51 pm

It doesn't finish here. I remember well, Ben, that you are the same guy who asked about the merging of the Davidic Messiah and the Ephraimite Messiah in only one figure. Now, the symbol of that merging is just the cross:

Ezekiel 37:15-20
15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

The cross is so given by the intersection of the two sticks (respectively of Israel and of Judah) to mean the unity of the Jews that will be realized by the Messiah in the last times.

Et voilà, the same image of two different people unified by a cross is shown again in a Christian writing: Ephesians 2:14-16:
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: The only crucifixion mentioned in Hebrews (hence in Paul, also) is of the corpse of Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:00 pm

Tertullian connects again the cross with the sacrifice of Isaac in a more specific way:

This wood, again, Isaac the son of Abraham personally carried for his own sacrifice, when God had enjoined that he should be made a victim to Himself. But, because these had been mysteries which were being kept for perfect fulfilment in the times of Christ, Isaac, on the one hand, with his wood, was reserved, the ram being offered which was caught by the horns in the bramble; Christ, on the other hand, in His times, carried His wood on His own shoulders, adhering to the horns of the cross, with a thorny crown encircling His head.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0308.htm
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: The only crucifixion mentioned in Hebrews (hence in Paul, also) is of the corpse of Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:40 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:07 pm
I don't understand why the onus probandi is on myself to prove the authenticity of the passage.
Which passage are you referring to?
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Re: The only crucifixion mentioned in Hebrews (hence in Paul, also) is of the corpse of Jesus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:45 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:51 pm
It doesn't finish here. I remember well, Ben, that you are the same guy who asked about the merging of the Davidic Messiah and the Ephraimite Messiah in only one figure.
I actually proposed that Jesus started off as one but then was given features of the other. (That is, it was not a clean and equal merger between the two.) Just making sure this is clear.
Now, the symbol of that merging is just the cross:

Ezekiel 37:15-20
15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

"Make them one stick." Why would this be a cross?

You are working very hard to find cross symbols in the scriptures: harder, perhaps, even than the early Christians. What I am saying is that these symbols do not suggest themselves automatically. If one already has a cross in mind, one can find them; but how did the cross spring into mind in the first place? If it was from such dodgy material as you are proposing currently, then it truly was a singular event, which is exactly my point.
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