Crucifixion of Inanna ?

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andrewcriddle
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Crucifixion of Inanna ?

Post by andrewcriddle »

In the thread about Mithras Richard Carrier was quoted
And then the one single thing of mine he does address, he gets wrong in almost every way.

First, I never argued in NIF that “Jesus cannot have been crucified” because Inanna was; in fact I there explicitly say I am not saying the crucifixion of Jesus was inspired by that. Yet Casey imputes to me the other argument. That’s worse than a straw man, because it actually misleads his readers, who will now think I made a ridiculous argument, which in fact I didn’t. Indeed, nowhere in NIF do I even argue that Jesus didn’t exist (to the contrary, NIF consistently assumes he did). He even tries to admit this, but characterizes it as “going back” on myself (7-5994), when in fact it was simply my position, not a retreat from some “other” position (which again basically makes him a liar).
In the passage in question I am explicitly responding to the argument that “no one would worship a crucified deity, therefore Jesus must have actually risen from the dead.” Casey surely rejects such fundamentalist balderdash as I do, yet he does not tell his readers that this is the only context in which I brought up the Inanna narrative. Inanna is an example of a humiliated, killed and crucified deity, who was nevertheless widely worshipped. I seriously doubt Casey can honestly have a problem with that. Because it being true has no bearing on whether Jesus existed–unless you argue that “no one would worship a crucified deity, therefore Jesus must have actually been crucified.” Fortunately Casey doesn’t appear to make that argument. (Because my argument in that case would be correct.) So why my treatment of Inanna concerns him in this book is hard to discern. And he never explains any of this to his readers, who are thus mislead into thinking I argue that Inanna’s tale is an argument against the historicity of Jesus. It’s not. I think it can bear on the subject, but not like that. And I didn’t even discuss that possibility in NIF.

Second, Casey suffers from concrete thinking (see next section), so badly that he thinks Inanna can’t be a crucified deity because she was a vegetation goddess (7-5994). That is a non sequitur. That’s like saying she can’t be a crucified deity because she’s a woman. Or not Jewish. The differences are irrelevant. We unmistakably have a god descending from heaven, into another supernatural realm below (the underworld), being tried, executed, humiliated, and crucified (her naked corpse nailed up), and then rising from the dead three days later and ascending back to heaven (it also has this whole thing being her plan from the start). Scholars therefore cannot claim such narratives did not predate Christianity. They most certainly did. Whether they had any influence on Christianity is a separate question. But it should certainly be relevant that this narrative was part of a major cult in the Middle East still practiced in Christian times and known to the Jews of Judea (as I show in NIF, a fact Casey does not mention).

Third, Casey is such a concrete thinker he cannot fathom that killing someone and nailing them up was ideologically comparable to Roman crucifixion. Thus he declares, absurdly, “It should be obvious that this has nothing to do with the Roman penalty of crucifixion” (7-5994). Not that it should have to (no one argues that Inanna was crucified by Romans). But even so, Casey does not cite or even seem to be aware of any of the scholarship establishing that in fact all the words for “crucifixion” were so variable as to definitely include exactly this sequence of events, that the Romans even highly varied their practice of crucifixion enough to include it, and that Jews also crucified their dead in exactly this way (execution, then hanging on a post). I document this from primary sources and cite the peer reviewed scholarship that agrees with me in my chapter on the burial of Jesus in The Empty Tomb. I add even more in OHJ.

This was off-topic about Mithras but raises interesting issues.
The passage about Inanna being killed from the descent of Inanna is usually translated
The afflicted woman was turned into a corpse. And the corpse was hung on a hook.
or similar. This is the Sumerian version of the myth the Akkadian parallel myth the descent of Ishtar has nothing closely corresponding to this although Akkadian texts are prima-facie more relevant to the NT world than are Sumerian texts.

The real problem is that the standard translation is a paraphrase literally the text reads
The afflicted woman was turned into a piece of meat. And the piece of meat was hung on a hook.
According to Jacobsen in Treasures of Darkness Inanna is (among other things) the spirit of the storehouse. Her descent into death in the underworld is the depletion of the storehouse from its initial rich abundance till all that remains is one last unsavoury lump of meat hanging from a meat hook in a cavern that has become a place of death and sterility though it was once full of life and nourishment..

Jacobsen may be over speculative but he is IMHO closer to the real meaning than are references to the punishment of impalement/crucifixion,

Andrew Criddle
PhilosopherJay
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Re: Crucifixion of Inanna ?

Post by PhilosopherJay »

Hi Andrew,

I think the parallel is that Inanna is a goddess who undergoes a terrible punishment dies and rises again and Jesus is a god who undergoes a terrible punishment, dies and rises again. The attachment of Inanna to a meat hook or the attachment of Jesus to a pole plays the same story element function. The plot is the same. Somebody did something terrible to my God. My God suffered. My god died. My God is alive again.
What the story element or motif symbolizes may differ from myth to myth. So Inanna may symbolize an empty storehouse and Jesus may symbolize the return of the elite believers of God after being dead or crucified in the world between the Greeks and Jews. In the same way the wolf may be the symbol of savage cunning in "Little Red Riding Hood," and the symbol of savage universal justice in "The Boy who Cried Wolf."

Warmly,

Jay Raskin
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Re: Crucifixion of Inanna ?

Post by Metacrock »

almost none of the dying rising savior gods were crucified. mythers shamelessly make up source and exaggerate everything. read real mythology books, none of those guys were crucified. Krishna was short with an arrow. MIthra didn't die. don't give me this crap Inanna. you are fix is to every single figure in mythogoy was a pattern for the Jesus mythl

Jack frost was crucified on the cross of spring..
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Blood
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Re: Crucifixion of Inanna ?

Post by Blood »

Metacrock wrote:almost none of the dying rising savior gods were crucified.
:lol:

Kind of like saying, "almost none of the gods were castrated."

More than one proves it wasn't unique, a supposition apparently crucial to apologists.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
andrewcriddle
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Re: Crucifixion of Inanna ?

Post by andrewcriddle »

PhilosopherJay wrote:Hi Andrew,

I think the parallel is that Inanna is a goddess who undergoes a terrible punishment dies and rises again and Jesus is a god who undergoes a terrible punishment, dies and rises again. The attachment of Inanna to a meat hook or the attachment of Jesus to a pole plays the same story element function. The plot is the same. Somebody did something terrible to my God. My God suffered. My god died. My God is alive again.
What the story element or motif symbolizes may differ from myth to myth. So Inanna may symbolize an empty storehouse and Jesus may symbolize the return of the elite believers of God after being dead or crucified in the world between the Greeks and Jews. In the same way the wolf may be the symbol of savage cunning in "Little Red Riding Hood," and the symbol of savage universal justice in "The Boy who Cried Wolf."

Warmly,

Jay Raskin
Hi Jay

I agree that in the broad sense divine beings who suffer are part of the ancient world-view. The problem comes when one tries to draw more exact parallels between prima-facie very different stories.

Andrew Criddle
Roger Pearse
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Re: Crucifixion of Inanna ?

Post by Roger Pearse »

The difficulty would be that, if we drew the category loosely enough, we would probably discover "divine beings who suffer" in Australia or Mexico or somewhere. It's too big a category.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Crucifixion of Inanna ?

Post by MrMacSon »

Metacrock wrote:almost none of the dying rising savior gods were crucified. ...
b/c most of the narratives about those gods arose in times when crucifixion was not practiced or not popular

The key point is "dying rising gods"
Sheshbazzar
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Re: Crucifixion of Inanna ?

Post by Sheshbazzar »

Metacrock wrote:almost none of the dying rising savior gods were crucified. mythers shamelessly make up source and exaggerate everything. read real mythology books, none of those guys were crucified.
כי־קללת אלהים תלוי

Understand what this bit of ancient text states Metacrock? Do you need it explained to you?
NO exceptions. Not even for the Christ himself.
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cienfuegos
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Re: Crucifixion of Inanna ?

Post by cienfuegos »

andrewcriddle wrote:
PhilosopherJay wrote:Hi Andrew,

I think the parallel is that Inanna is a goddess who undergoes a terrible punishment dies and rises again and Jesus is a god who undergoes a terrible punishment, dies and rises again. The attachment of Inanna to a meat hook or the attachment of Jesus to a pole plays the same story element function. The plot is the same. Somebody did something terrible to my God. My God suffered. My god died. My God is alive again.
What the story element or motif symbolizes may differ from myth to myth. So Inanna may symbolize an empty storehouse and Jesus may symbolize the return of the elite believers of God after being dead or crucified in the world between the Greeks and Jews. In the same way the wolf may be the symbol of savage cunning in "Little Red Riding Hood," and the symbol of savage universal justice in "The Boy who Cried Wolf."

Warmly,

Jay Raskin
Hi Jay

I agree that in the broad sense divine beings who suffer are part of the ancient world-view. The problem comes when one tries to draw more exact parallels between prima-facie very different stories.

Andrew Criddle
There should be an element of dying. The God should be thought of as dying and in some way conquering death. The idea isn't that Christianity copied whole cloth and consciously cobbled together a plagiarized belief system. It is that Christianity operated within a particular paradigm in which this is what Gods do.

It is like super hero stories today. Usually the bad guy gets the upper hand. Maybe even kills the superhero, but whatever the case, the superhero is down and out. Batman'so back is broken. Superman is chained to kryptonite. Emma renounces her magic powers, Thomas covenant is destroyed by Lord foul. House Atreides is wiped out by the harkonnens only to rise again after a sojourn in the desert. It's endless. All these stories are vastly different, but they all share archetypal plot and character elements. That is same as situation we see with these ancient religions, Christianity just is not unique in that regard. It should be examined as an ancient religion that is contextually embedded in the cultures within which emerged. Those who were involved in the early stages of its development were just as constrained and shaped by their culture as any other religious adherent.

It makes no sense whatsoever to point to insignificant differences like Ianna was hanged on hook, but Jesus was hanged from a T-shaped cross. M. Felix seems to not see the cross as a being pertinent to a crucifixion anyway.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Crucifixion of Inanna ?

Post by GakuseiDon »

cienfuegos wrote:It makes no sense whatsoever to point to insignificant differences like Ianna was hanged on hook, but Jesus was hanged from a T-shaped cross.
I think it does, if the claim is something like "Inanna was crucified, just like Jesus." While Carrier is clear in his book, he is much less clear in some of his on-line articles. I give two examples below.

The first example is Carrier's review of Kersey Graves' "Sixteen Crucified Saviours", where he lambasts Graves for (ironically) misinformation. Carrier writes (my bolding):
http://infidels.org/library/modern/rich ... raves.html
  • Although I have not exhaustively investigated this matter, I have confirmed only two real "resurrected" deities with some uncanny similarity to Jesus which are actually reported before Christian times, Zalmoxis and Inanna...

    The only case, that I know, of a pre-Christian god actually being crucified and then resurrected is Inanna (also known as Ishtar), a Sumerian goddess whose crucifixion, resurrection and escape from the underworld is told in cuneiform tablets inscribed c. 1500 B.C.E., attesting to a very old tradition.
The second example is where Carrier responds to JP Holding's "The Impossible Faith" (my bolding below): http://infidels.org/library/modern/rich ... ified.html
  • 1. Who Would Buy One Crucified?

    James Holding asks: "Who on earth would believe a religion centered on a crucified man?" Well, the Sumerians perhaps. One of their top goddesses, Inanna (the Babylonian Ishtar, Goddess of Love and "Queen of Heaven"), was stripped naked and crucified, yet rose again and, triumphant, condemned to Hell her lover, the shepherd-god Dumuzi (the Babylonian Tammuz). This became the center of a major Sumerian sacred story, preserved in clay tablets dating over a thousand years before Christ.[1] The corresponding religion, which we now know included the worship of a crucified Inanna, is mentioned by Ezekiel as having achieved some popularity within Jerusalem itself by the 6th century B.C. The "women weeping for Tammuz" at the north gate of the Jewish temple (Ezekiel 8:14) we now know were weeping because Inanna had condemned him to Hell, after herself being crucified and resurrected. So the influence of this religious story and its potent, apparently compelling allure upon pre-Christian Judaism is in evidence.[2]

    Even so, my point is not that the Christians got the idea of a crucified god from early Inanna cult. There may have been some direct or indirect influence we cannot trace. We can't rule that out--the idea of worshipping a crucified deity did predate Christianity and had entered Jewish society within Palestine. But we don't know any more than that.[3] Rather, my point is that we have here a clear example of many people worshipping a crucified god...

    I caution strongly against overzealous attempts to link Christianity with prior religions... But I can't deny there are some intriguing parallels, including those between this story of Inanna and the story of the Incarnation of the Lord told in the Ascension of Isaiah. There are many important differences, but it is curious that in the Sumerian story Inanna descends through the seven gates of Hell, with a different encounter at each stage, and her humiliation and crucifixion are at the bottom. Similarly, in the Jewish story the Savior (Jesus) descends through the seven heavens, with a different encounter at each stage, and his humiliation and crucifixion are at the bottom... I admit these parallels are worth noting, but they are too little to make much of.
Since Carrier does not define how he is using "crucifixion" in those articles (note that he does define how he uses it in his book, as I gave earlier) I think readers would come away with the wrong impression with what Carrier is saying. That's unfortunate, since Carrier's point is not the crucifixion as such.
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
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