Paul as Combatant in 1st Century BCE

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Jax
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Re: Paul as Combatant in 1st Century BCE

Post by Jax » Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:04 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:59 am
Jax wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:17 am
Good question. Maybe two independent compilations by different compilers? Maybe combining the two would have made the length unwieldy? Maybe an attempt to keep two letters in play because of 2 Corinthians 7.8? Then again, 1 Corinthians 5.9 apparently did not inspire a similar maneuver. Not sure.
I think that your first answer may have merit. As far as I know 1 Clement only seems to know 1 Corinthians but not the second letter. Does this seem right to you?
The editors of The New Testament in the Apostolic Fathers (1905) judged the following correspondence to the too weak to demonstrate dependence:

1 Clement 36.2-3: 2 Through this one we gaze into the heights of the heavens; through this one we behold [ένοπτριζόμεθα] the reflection of his perfect and superior countenance; through this one the eyes of our hearts have been opened; through this one our foolish and darkened understanding springs up into the light; through this one the Master has wished us to taste the knowledge of immortality. He is the radiance of his magnificence, as superior to the angels as he has inherited a more excellent name.

2 Corinthians 3.18: 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding [κατοπτριζόμενοι] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

They also discussed the following correspondence:

1 Clement 5.5-6: 5 Because of jealousy and strife Paul pointed the way to the prize for endurance. 6 Seven times he bore chains; he was sent into exile and stoned; he served as a herald in both the East and the West; and he received the noble reputation for his faith.

2 Corinthians 11.23-27: 23 Are they servants of Christ? I speak as if insane. I more so; in far more labors, in far more imprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death. 24 Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep. 26 I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren; 27 I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure.

Partly because Clement includes that detail about bearing chains seven times, which cannot be sourced from Paul, the editors thought that he may have gotten his information from stories about Paul. Overall, the editors gave Clement's possible knowledge of 2 Corinthians their lowest possible rating: a D. The twin updates to that 1905 book, The Reception of the New Testament in the Fathers and Trajectories Through the New Testament and the Fathers, edited by Andrew Gregory and Christopher Tuckett, do not alter this picture so far as I can tell; in footnote 4 of page 10 of the second volume, in his chapter on Paul in Clement and Ignatius, Andreas Lindemann asserts that "we cannot say anything about the knowledge of 2 Corinthians (or its original parts)" by Clement.

And there is this:

1 Clement 47.1-2: 1 Take up the epistle of that blessed apostle, Paul. 2 What did he write to you at first, at the beginning of his proclamation of the gospel?

The fathers do not always say "first" or "second" epistle when they know more than one, but they often do, and Clement does not here.
Thanks Ben, that fits with what I understand of the subject as well. Makes me wonder if 2 Corinthians was put together sometime after 1 Clement and before Marcion.

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Jax
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Re: Paul as Combatant in 1st Century BCE

Post by Jax » Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:18 am

Herod the Great: During Herod’s rise to power, his personal army consisted of Jews as well as bands of foreign mercenaries. Rome also loaned Herod the use of three legions to help him expel the Parthian invaders and their puppet king, the Hasmonean prince Antigonus. But by the time of Jesus’ birth, Herod had no Roman troops; he still had a sizable Jewish army, as well as one cohort each of German, Thracian, and Gallic mercenaries. Herod continued to use some Roman advisors and officers.

Herod Antipas, tetrarch of Galilee: Herod Antipas also had his own army. Although details are sketchy, his soldiers were likely Jews and Gentile mercenaries, like his father’s army.

Pilate and other Roman governors: When Archelaus (another Herod) was removed from office in AD 6, Jerusalem and Judea fell under the control of the Roman governors. They kept four cohorts (a cohort was usually 6 centuries of 60-80 soldiers) and some cavalry in Caesarea Maritima, the Roman provincial capital, and one cohort in the fortress Antonia in Jerusalem. The cohort in Jerusalem was primarily in charge of protecting the fort and the arsenal. The governor came to Jerusalem at major feasts with additional cohorts, which were temporarily quartered in the Praetorium (the governor’s palace). Roman cohorts normally travelled with battle standards and shrines that honored their gods. However, the troops left these behind when they came to Jerusalem, since Romans (usually) tried to honor the religious customs and gods of their client nations. Since the “Roman” soldiers in the East were primarily recruited from the Syrian Greeks, they probably spoke Greek as their primary language, not Latin. Their senior officers were probably ethnically Roman or Italian.

The High Priest: The Roman governors allowed the priestly aristocracy to govern Jerusalem and Judea, although the governor appointed and removed high priests and kept the right of capital punishment. The high priest had his own Jewish troops (called ὑπηρέται, hyperetai in the Gospels). These primarily had police responsibility, but were also prepared for city defense.
from https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-book-b ... he-gospels

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Jax
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Re: Paul as Combatant in 1st Century BCE

Post by Jax » Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:52 am

Jax wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:38 am
Opps. Forgot about this question.
Philippians 3.2-7 has always stuck out for me, simply because of its sudden thematic relation to Galatians and Romans. Not sure about the rest. What stands out for you? What are the issues?
Really also just 3:2-7. The language in it just doesn't sound right to me.
Hey Ben, came across this article and thought you might enjoy it. PAUL AND CYNICISM IN PHILIPPIANS 3.2 Nicholas E. Wagner https://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/re ... JL2011.pdf

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Re: Paul as Combatant in 1st Century BCE

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:23 am

Jax wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:52 am
Jax wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:38 am
Opps. Forgot about this question.
Philippians 3.2-7 has always stuck out for me, simply because of its sudden thematic relation to Galatians and Romans. Not sure about the rest. What stands out for you? What are the issues?
Really also just 3:2-7. The language in it just doesn't sound right to me.
Hey Ben, came across this article and thought you might enjoy it. PAUL AND CYNICISM IN PHILIPPIANS 3.2 Nicholas E. Wagner https://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/re ... JL2011.pdf

Lane
Thanks!
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Jax
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Re: Paul as Combatant in 1st Century BCE

Post by Jax » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:28 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:23 am
Jax wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:52 am
Jax wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:38 am
Opps. Forgot about this question.
Philippians 3.2-7 has always stuck out for me, simply because of its sudden thematic relation to Galatians and Romans. Not sure about the rest. What stands out for you? What are the issues?
Really also just 3:2-7. The language in it just doesn't sound right to me.
Hey Ben, came across this article and thought you might enjoy it. PAUL AND CYNICISM IN PHILIPPIANS 3.2 Nicholas E. Wagner https://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/re ... JL2011.pdf

Lane
Thanks!
Glad I can contribute. :cheers:

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Jax
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Re: Paul as Combatant in 1st Century BCE

Post by Jax » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:05 am

Just came across this. Name change on enlistment https://www.romanarmytalk.com/showthread.php?tid=30469

It makes sense and could explain how a Jewish man could acquire a Roman name.

Food for thought.

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Jax
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Re: Paul as Combatant in 1st Century BCE

Post by Jax » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:32 am

The Roman cavalry of the 2nd century BC was a mix between Roman, Italian, Spanish, Greek, Thracian, and Numidian cavalry. By the middle of the 1st century, it was nearly entirely Gallic, with smaller detachments of Numidians and maybe some local cavalry types of whatever theater they were operating in.
from https://www.romanarmytalk.com/showthread.php?tid=24847

Our Galatians perhaps?

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Re: Paul as Combatant in 1st Century BCE

Post by Jax » Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:58 pm

It pains me to report that my theory of Paul being an auxiliary member of Pompey's army against Caesar, is that he would probably also have been at the battle of Pharsalus.
According to this paper anyway https://www.academia.edu/19860273/48_BC ... _Pharsalus Caesar told his men, while mopping up, to spare the opposing Roman soldiers but to kill the auxiliary troops. It appears that the Romans despised the auxiliary soldiers and would have been pretty brutal with them. While some undoubtedly escaped, the majority would probably have been killed or enslaved. Also, it seems to me anyway, that it would be unlikely that Paul, had he been there, would remind Roman veterans later that he was one of the despised enemy.

Oh well.

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Re: Paul as Combatant in 1st Century BCE

Post by Jax » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:32 pm

Ben, I haven't, despite recent (self inflicted, ouch!) setbacks to my current model, completely given up on an early date for Paul. Having given more thought to your generational prophecy question, I find myself wondering if 'Mark' created his early 1st century Jesus to have a coming of the Christ fall within the generation that he may have perceived Paul being in. Paul never refers to Jesus returning; only coming, as in a first time. If his Holy Spirit descending on the man, Jesus, is the first coming of the heavenly Christ then an early date for the story makes sense if he perceived Paul as being part of that time.

Just food for thought.

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Re: Paul as Combatant in 1st Century BCE

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:54 pm

Jax wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:32 pm
Ben, I haven't, despite recent (self inflicted, ouch!) setbacks to my current model, completely given up on an early date for Paul.
I admire your intellectual honesty.
Paul never refers to Jesus returning; only coming, as in a first time.
Do the gospels refer to Jesus returning?
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