Was the Original Point of the Christian Story/Myth to Punish or Justify the Punishment of the Jews?

[Secret Alias]

There has of course been a complete revisionist interpretation of Christianity that 'Christ crucified' doesn't justify the punishment and chastisement of the Jews. But was this dimension original and essential to the Christian gospel?

[John2]

Since my thing is that Christians were a faction of the Fourth Philosophy, I'm thinking the original gospel was opposed to (other) Fourth Philosophers (in addition to Jewish and Roman authorities) rather than to Jews and Judaism as a whole, just like Josephus, who blames Fourth Philosophers for the destruction of Judea and refers to "the madness of these men towards one another ... [and] their desire ... that none of the adverse party might be left" in Ant. 18.1.1.

I think this is what is going on in Mark with respect to Judas Iscariot, who I now see as being symbolic of Judas the Galilean and Sicarii types rather than of Jews as a whole, and with Jesus' remark about other "I am He" guys in 13:5-6:

Jesus began by telling them, “See to it that no one deceives you. Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am He,’ and will deceive many."

I see these guys (and Jesus) as being the type of Fourth Philosophers Josephus describes in War 2.13.4:

These were such men as deceived and deluded the people under pretense of divine inspiration, but were for procuring innovations and changes of the government; and these prevailed with the multitude to act like madmen, and went before them into the wilderness, as pretending that God would there show them the signals of liberty.

I see the two bandits who mocked Jesus in 15:22 as being part of this "madness of these men towards one another" as well:

And even those who were crucified with him berated him.

And just like Eusebius uses Josephus to show that the destruction of Judea he describes was punishment for Jews as a whole for killing Jesus even though he only blames Fourth Philosophers, I think the same thing happened with Mark (and/or the original gospel), i.e., it too only condemns (other) Fourth Philosophers (and Jewish and Roman authorities) but was seen by later Christians as condemning Jews as a whole.

[neilgodfrey]

There has of course been a complete revisionist interpretation of Christianity that 'Christ crucified' doesn't justify the punishment and chastisement of the Jews. But was this dimension original and essential to the Christian gospel?

If we discount 1 Thess. 2:14-16 as an interpolation and accept a pre-70 time frame for various of the Pauline and other letters and/or Hebrews and/or other early hints of some form of incipient Christianity like the Odes of Solomon, then we have a Christianity that presents itself as a higher form of the Jewish religion and is in dispute with other Judean sects (as other Judean sects are in dispute with one another -- e.g. pro and anti-temple sects) then I don't think we have grounds for thinking of the earliest form of Christianity as a sign of God's wrath on the Jews.

Did even Marcion think of Christianity as bound up with a justification of God's wrath on the Jews? I don't think so. The Alien God was all love and the Demiurge was just doing his thing.

Is it the Gospel of Mark where we find the first message that God will kill the Jews (the parable of the wicked tenants) if they don't accept Jesus? Or am I overlooking sources?

[Giuseppe]

I agree with Neil about the his answer concerning Paul.


My view about the presumed Gospel anti-Jewishness:

• If Pilate is not found in the earliest gospel, then the DNA of any Gospel (from the first until the last) is always anti-Jewish

• If Pilate is found in the earliest gospel, then, even if later gospels could be anti-Jewish, the Earliest Gospel was probably pro-Jewish

[theeternaliam]

I see these guys (and Jesus) as being the type of Fourth Philosophers Josephus describes in War 2.13.4:

These were such men as deceived and deluded the people under pretense of divine inspiration, but were for procuring innovations and changes of the government; and these prevailed with the multitude to act like madmen, and went before them into the wilderness, as pretending that God would there show them the signals of liberty.

ole.

Jesus Christ said His kingdom is not of this world. He said to give to caesar what is caesar's. He also said that He didnt come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. This is one reason His message is so different from the many men throughout history who proclaimed to be the messiah. It is one reason He is rejected by jews, by other religious(including muslims who expect a caliphate and sharia law to be enforced upon the entire world, and by worldly revolutionary types back then and still to this day. Jesus Christ's Good News is distinct, Holy Holy Holy! and it is meant for those who have ears to hear, not meant to tickle the ears of the religious nor the anti religious, not meant to tickle the ears of liberals nor conservatives.

[theeternaliam]

There has of course been a complete revisionist interpretation of Christianity that 'Christ crucified' doesn't justify the punishment and chastisement of the Jews. But was this dimension original and essential to the Christian gospel?

If we discount 1 Thess. 2:14-16 as an interpolation and accept a pre-70 time frame for various of the Pauline and other letters and/or Hebrews and/or other early hints of some form of incipient Christianity like the Odes of Solomon, then we have a Christianity that presents itself as a higher form of the Jewish religion and is in dispute with other Judean sects (as other Judean sects are in dispute with one another -- e.g. pro and anti-temple sects) then I don't think we have grounds for thinking of the earliest form of Christianity as a sign of God's wrath on the Jews.

Did even Marcion think of Christianity as bound up with a justification of God's wrath on the Jews? I don't think so. The Alien God was all love and the Demiurge was just doing his thing.

Is it the Gospel of Mark where we find the first message that God will kill the Jews (the parable of the wicked tenants) if they don't accept Jesus? Or am I overlooking sources?

Ya live by the sword, ya die by the sword. The judgment you pass on to others will be passed back to you. Is it just christianity that speaks of God's wrath upon the jews or is christianity just following in the footsteps of and fulfilling the prophecies spoken of by the PROPHETS. Dont blame jesus. Blame the jews own oracles or the majority of jewish people who didnt heed the warnings and who didnt obey God's commandments, particularly having mercy on the poor and oppressed. Jesus tried helping them. He would have liked to protect them under His wing as a mother hen protects her chicks. But they were proud stubborn and judgemental, at the least. God invited them to His mercy. They refused and killed Him. And still to this day, when the proud and mighty refuse to have mercy on the poor and needy, widows and orphans,(like the trumpites towards poor immigrant mothers and children) they are only laying up for themselves wrath for the day of judgment. And, still God extends His mercy, and if today they would heed His call to have compassion on the stranger, they could be forgiven.

[perseusomega9]

You can stop with the dumb proselytizing dogma anytime now

[neilgodfrey]

You can stop with the dumb proselytizing dogma anytime now

Not just "dumb" proselytizing, but distinctly anti-semitic proselytizing. I am surprised theeternaliam is allowed free rein to spew the sort of medieval antisemitism here that most of us thought was finally shaken to its senses in the last century.