Atheist assumptions dating Gospels are wrong

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
steve43
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Re: Atheist assumptions dating Gospels are wrong

Post by steve43 »

Diogenes the Cynic wrote:
steve43 wrote:Hagan assumes, and so do I, and EVERYONE should, that Pilate was paid "protection" money from the Temple priesthood to stay out of the way. When Caiaphas wanted Jesus dead, he knew that Pilate would do it. And so did Pilate, though he feigned reluctance.
This is sheer, antisemitic fantasy. Caiaphas had no reason to want Jesus dead. Only the Romans did. Jesus is not depicted as teaching anything contrary to Jewish law and the convinction for "blasphemy is legally impossible for merely claiming to the Messiah (that's not blasphemy under Jewish law. It's not illegal at all). Causing a disturbance at the Temple during Passover would give the Romans a reason to kill him. Pilate crucified wannabe Messiahs for less than that. Josephus tells of an unknown Samaritan Messiah who was crucified for saying he would uncover the Ark of the Covenant on the Samaritan Temple Mount. Pilate didn't even wait for him to try, just chased him down before he even got up the Mountain.

Caiaphas was Pilate's bitch anyway. The Roman Governors handpicked the High Priests. The priests had zero power over Pilate.
LOL.

Starting to see the light here, Diogenes.

You have an agenda to push- and I think I know what it is.

Even Tiberius complained that his Prefects were disgustingly corrupt- so much so that he was loath to replace them with another who might be worse.

If you don't think the High Priesthood didn't grease Pilate's palm, there is no hope for you.

As far as your fantasy of Caiaphas being beholden Pilate, how do you explain Caiaphas not personally going to Pilate and requesting Jesus' crucifixion?
Mental flatliner
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Re: Atheist assumptions dating Gospels are wrong

Post by Mental flatliner »

steve43 wrote:LOL.

Starting to see the light here, Diogenes.

You have an agenda to push- and I think I know what it is.

Even Tiberius complained that his Prefects were disgustingly corrupt- so much so that he was loath to replace them with another who might be worse.

If you don't think the High Priesthood didn't grease Pilate's palm, there is no hope for you.

As far as your fantasy of Caiaphas being beholden Pilate, how do you explain Caiaphas not personally going to Pilate and requesting Jesus' crucifixion?
Diogenes thinks in two dimensions. That's not enough to have an agenda.
Diogenes the Cynic
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Re: Atheist assumptions dating Gospels are wrong

Post by Diogenes the Cynic »

The Romans appointed the High Priests. That is historical fact.
Diogenes the Cynic
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Re: Atheist assumptions dating Gospels are wrong

Post by Diogenes the Cynic »

steve43 wrote:LOL.

Starting to see the light here, Diogenes.

You have an agenda to push- and I think I know what it is.
Well then you should let me know what it is because I have no idea.
Even Tiberius complained that his Prefects were disgustingly corrupt- so much so that he was loath to replace them with another who might be worse.

If you don't think the High Priesthood didn't grease Pilate's palm, there is no hope for you.
You are asserting this without evidence.
As far as your fantasy of Caiaphas being beholden Pilate, how do you explain Caiaphas not personally going to Pilate and requesting Jesus' crucifixion?
Caiaphas had no reason to want Jesus crucified. At most, the Temple authorities might have cooperated in helping to round Jesus up and turn him over to the Romans, but it's only Mark's own fiction that the Jewish authorities wanted to kill Jesus. They probably didn't even know who he was.

And that's assuming any of this is historical at all. One thing's for sure, the trial before the Sanhedrin was not historical.
steve43
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Re: Atheist assumptions dating Gospels are wrong

Post by steve43 »

Whatever.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Atheist assumptions dating Gospels are wrong

Post by MrMacSon »

.
Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho -
CHAPTER CX -- A PORTION OF THE PROPHECY ALREADY FULFILLED IN THE CHRISTIANS: THE REST SHALL BE FULFILLED AT THE SECOND ADVENT.

"Now I am aware that your teachers, sirs, admit the whole of the words of this passage to refer to Christ; and I am likewise aware that they maintain He has not yet come; or if they say that He has come, they assert that it is not known who He is; but when He shall become manifest and glorious, then it shall be known who He is.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... rypho.html
PhilosopherJay
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Re: Atheist assumptions dating Gospels are wrong

Post by PhilosopherJay »

Hi Diogenes the Cynic,

You are probably right that the money-changers were much closer to today's exploited bank tellers and low level bank managers than upper level management making millions in bonuses.
However Jesus was not an early version of Karl Marx. He did not do an economic analysis of the net costs and profits of the money changers. He was not advocating price controls for sacrificial animals.

The gospel writers are doing what they always do. They are being metaphorical in this scene. The people and practices in the temple are like "a den of thieves." The question is when would the terrorist activities of Jesus in physically and criminally beating up the money-changers and animal sellers have been seen as a correct action. It certainly was not during the time that Passover activities in the Temple were successful and thriving and bringing in lots of money. That would have been seen as proof of God's acceptance of the system. It would have only been after the destruction of the temple. It was the destruction of the temple that would have given the writers an argument that the temple was a den of thrives. Their proof of this would have been the destruction of the temple. Since everybody knew about the destruction of the temple, there was no need to mention it. The person reading the text at this point would naturally say, "Oh yes, the sacrifices were unacceptable to the father, the Jewish priests were thieves. That's why God had the Romans destroy the temple. This passage is really a prediction by Jesus and an explanation for the destruction of the temple (and not an economic analysis of merchant-religious consumer relations).

It was possibly after the partial destruction in 70 C.E., but far more likely after the complete destruction of the Temple in 130 B.C. that this idea that God permitted the destruction of his own temple due to priestly mismanagement would arise.



Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Diogenes the Cynic wrote:
Mental flatliner wrote:
Diogenes the Cynic wrote:Money changing at the Temple was not commerce or trade. It was just making change. Buying the animals was commerce. I have already given the citation showing that money changers did not get paid. You have responded with nothing but personal incredulity.
So this is your story:

People brought money to the temple (not to buy anything)
And volunteers gladly exchanged it for money they couldn't use when they went home.

Is that what you're going with?
No, this is not what I said. Let me explain more clearly. People bought animals for sacrifice at the Temple. They could not use Roman coins to buy the animals so they exchanged them for Tyrian shekels and bought the animals with those. All the money changers did was exchange Roman coins for Tyrian coins. They did not sell the animals. Other people sold the animals. The Temple made money, but the money changers did not. They were watched like hawks to make sure they didn't skim. They were just free labor. Your argument amounts to saying that because Wal-Mart makes billions of dollars that Wal-Mart greeters must be rolling in dough. No. The money changers were just part of the exploited class. Even the rank and file priests were poor.
Ulan
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Re: Atheist assumptions dating Gospels are wrong

Post by Ulan »

PhilosopherJay wrote:The people and practices in the temple are like "a den of thieves."
That's right, I think this is the core sentence. It's nothing else than foreshadowing the destruction of the temple.
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maryhelena
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Re: Atheist assumptions dating Gospels are wrong

Post by maryhelena »

PhilosopherJay wrote:
The gospel writers are doing what they always do. They are being metaphorical in this scene. The people and practices in the temple are like "a den of thieves." The question is when would the terrorist activities of Jesus in physically and criminally beating up the money-changers and animal sellers have been seen as a correct action. It certainly was not during the time that Passover activities in the Temple were successful and thriving and bringing in lots of money. That would have been seen as proof of God's acceptance of the system. It would have only been after the destruction of the temple. It was the destruction of the temple that would have given the writers an argument that the temple was a den of thrives.
From another perspective; a Hasmonean perspective, the legitimacy of that Jerusalem temple could well be denied since the events of 37 b.c.e. A den of thieves, a den of robbers, has more relevance when viewed against Hasmonean history than it does to the events of 70 c.e. The thieves, or robbers are not the money changers but the Herodians who have usurped Hasmonean rule. That the gospel crucifixion story is set around 70 years from the events of 37 b.c.e. indicates that the Herodian siege of Jerusalem has relevance for the gospel writers. It is not simply the current, Pilate's time, operation of the Temple sacrifices that is primary here - it is the charge that Jesus made - the Temple has become a den of robbers/thieves. The Herodians have robbed the Hasmoneans of their High Priestly status - and Kingship.

Yes, of course, the gospel account can be interpreted in some prophetic, metaphorical or symbolic context re the events of 70 c.e. The prophetic sayings of Jesus being put into the mouth of this literary figure post 70 c.e. However, all of that does not negate the primary thrust of that Temple cleansing story. i.e. that the cleansing was a literary, symbolic, demonstration against the events of 37 b.c.e. when the Hasmoneans were robbed of their High Priest and Kingship status.

All the gospel railing against the Jewish priesthood can be read as being against the Herodian appointed Jewish priesthood. The events of 37 b.c.e., events prior to the time of Pilate, are events that are being reflected within the gospel Jesus story. Backdating the relevance of the 70 c.e. events is one thing - another is the bringing forward, to the Pilate timeline, the relevance of the earlier events of 37 b.c.e. Both historical events 37 b.c.e. and 70 c.e. are reflected in the gospel story.

Perhaps, in connection with 37 b.c.e., the account in Slavonic Josephus should be kept in mind:

Page 172 from the Slavonic Josephus

Immediately the priests started to grieve
and complain to one another, saying among
themselves in secret (things)they would
not dare to say in public because of Herod’s
friends.

For they were saying: ‘The Law forbids us
to have a foreigner (as) king, but we are
expecting the Anointed, the Meek One, of
David’s line. Yet we know that Herod is an
Arab, uncircumcised. The Anointed One
will be called meek but this (king) has
filled our whole land with blood. Under
the Anointed the lame were to walk,
the blind to see, the poor to prosper,
but under this (king) the hale have become
lame, those who could see have gone blind,
the rich are beggared.

But is this (king)the hope of nations?
We detest his misdeeds, are the nations
going to hope in him?”

Alas, God has abandoned us and we are
forgotten by Him, and he wishes
to commit us to desolation and ruin,
not as in the time of Nebuchadnezzar
or Antiochus! For them the prophets were
teachers of the people and promised us
captivity and return. But now there is
no one to ask and no one to console (us)!

In reply the priest Ananus told them:
“I know all the Writings. When Herod was
fighting in front of the city,
I never imagined that God would allow him
to reign over us. But I now understand
that our devastation is <already> at hand.
And consider Daniel’s prophecy. For he
writes that after the Return, the city of
Jerusalem will stand for 70 weeks of
years, that is 400 years and 90, and will
lie waste after those years”.

And they calculated the years and it was so.
And the priest Jonathan answering, said:
“The number of years are as I said, but
where is the Holy of Holies? For
(the prophet) cannot be called this Herod
holy. (since he is) bloodthirsty and foul.”
But one of them, Levi by name, wishing to
appear wiser than them, said whatever
occurred to him, not (quoting) the Scriptures
but (repeating) fairy stories.

They, being scribes, began to seek the time
when the Holy (One) would appear, and were
disgusted by Levi’s words, saying. “You have
broth in your mouth and bone in your head.
They said this to him because he had taken
an early breakfast during the night and his
head was heavy as bone with the drink.
Humiliated, he hurried off to Herod;
and he told him the words of the priests who
had spoken against him.

But Herod sent (his men) by night and
slew them all in secret from the people
so that they should not cause a riot.
And he appointed others <in their place>.

Josephus' Jewish War and Its Slavonic Version: A Synoptic Comparison
H. Leeming (Editor), K. Leeming (Editor)

Their proof of this would have been the destruction of the temple. Since everybody knew about the destruction of the temple, there was no need to mention it. The person reading the text at this point would naturally say, "Oh yes, the sacrifices were unacceptable to the father, the Jewish priests were thieves. That's why God had the Romans destroy the temple. This passage is really a prediction by Jesus and an explanation for the destruction of the temple (and not an economic analysis of merchant-religious consumer relations).

It was possibly after the partial destruction in 70 C.E., but far more likely after the complete destruction of the Temple in 130 B.C. that this idea that God permitted the destruction of his own temple due to priestly mismanagement would arise.



Warmly,

Jay Raskin
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
Kris
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Re: Atheist assumptions dating Gospels are wrong

Post by Kris »

[quote="MrMacSon"].
Justin Martyr's [i]Dialogue with Trypho[/i] -
[quote]
CHAPTER CX -- A PORTION OF THE PROPHECY ALREADY FULFILLED IN THE CHRISTIANS: THE REST SHALL BE FULFILLED AT THE SECOND ADVENT.

[i]"Now I am aware that your teachers, sirs, admit the whole of the words of this passage to refer to Christ; and I am likewise aware that they maintain He has not yet come; or if they say that He has come, they assert that it is not known who He is; but when He shall become manifest and glorious, then it shall be known who He is.[/i]

[url]http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... rypho.html[/url][/quote][/quote]


Mr MacSon,

I am not sure what you were trying to assert here by this comment--can you expand? I was wanting to create a new post on a few things that Justin stated in his dialogue with Trypho as well, but can't yet figure out how to create a brand new post!
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