Atheist assumptions dating Gospels are wrong

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Diogenes the Cynic
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Re: Atheist assumptions dating Gospels are wrong

Post by Diogenes the Cynic »

PhilosopherJay wrote:Hi Diogenes the Cynic,

You are probably right that the money-changers were much closer to today's exploited bank tellers and low level bank managers than upper level management making millions in bonuses.
However Jesus was not an early version of Karl Marx. He did not do an economic analysis of the net costs and profits of the money changers. He was not advocating price controls for sacrificial animals.

The gospel writers are doing what they always do. They are being metaphorical in this scene. The people and practices in the temple are like "a den of thieves." The question is when would the terrorist activities of Jesus in physically and criminally beating up the money-changers and animal sellers have been seen as a correct action. It certainly was not during the time that Passover activities in the Temple were successful and thriving and bringing in lots of money. That would have been seen as proof of God's acceptance of the system. It would have only been after the destruction of the temple. It was the destruction of the temple that would have given the writers an argument that the temple was a den of thrives. Their proof of this would have been the destruction of the temple. Since everybody knew about the destruction of the temple, there was no need to mention it. The person reading the text at this point would naturally say, "Oh yes, the sacrifices were unacceptable to the father, the Jewish priests were thieves. That's why God had the Romans destroy the temple. This passage is really a prediction by Jesus and an explanation for the destruction of the temple (and not an economic analysis of merchant-religious consumer relations).

It was possibly after the partial destruction in 70 C.E., but far more likely after the complete destruction of the Temple in 130 B.C. that this idea that God permitted the destruction of his own temple due to priestly mismanagement would arise.



Warmly,

Jay Raskin
I agree with most everything here. I didn't mean to give an impression that I thought Jesus had any Marxist motive. I don't think he had any economic motive at all. I don't he wanted to reform the Temple, I think he wanted to destroy the Temple altogether. Crossan thinks Jesus wanted to remove the entire institution of temple sacrifice and replace it with his utopian "Kingdom" ideal (this would be a somewhat expanded/universalized version of what the Essenes were already doing). I think he might have been trying to fulfill Malachi 3:1:
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
I believe the Qumran literature indicates a belief that Herod's Temple as going to be miraculously and instantly replaced with Solomon's original Temple, so he might have expected that too. Either way, I think he saw himself as the "Messenger" (i.e. "angel" [Malach/Aggelos]) who was going to "clear the way" for some kind of theophanic or eschatological event - possibly in the form of Daniel's descending "son of man" figure (though that could also be a post-crucifixion reconfiguration to make Jesus himself into the expected figure of divine retribution.

I don't find this kind of scenario any less plausible than the Samaritan Josephus says was crucified by Pilate for saying he would find the artifacts of the Ark on the Samaritan temple mount. A Galilean trying to clear the Temple for God to come down (in whatever form) is not out of keeping with what kinds of things those guys did. Another one said he would part the Jordan River and he got chased down and killed by the Romans before he could even get there and try. Jesus may not have even had to have really tried it, he may have just threatened it. The Romans (as seen in the examples above) did not necessarily bother to wait for people to fail.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Atheist assumptions dating Gospels are wrong

Post by Charles Wilson »

Diogenes the Cynic wrote: I don't think he had any economic motive at all. I don't he wanted to reform the Temple, I think he wanted to destroy the Temple altogether. Crossan thinks Jesus wanted to remove the entire institution of temple sacrifice and replace it with his utopian "Kingdom" ideal...I believe the Qumran literature indicates a belief that Herod's Temple as going to be miraculously and instantly replaced with Solomon's original Temple, so he might have expected that too. Either way, I think he saw himself as the "Messenger" (i.e. "angel" [Malach/Aggelos]) who was going to "clear the way" for some kind of theophanic or eschatological event - possibly in the form of Daniel's descending "son of man" figure (though that could also be a post-crucifixion reconfiguration to make Jesus himself into the expected figure of divine retribution.
Hello Diogenes-

Assuming we could come to an agreement on what/who "Jesus" was, we would then need to agree what the "Reform" of the Temple would be. I tend to agree with some of what you say, in terms of the Herodians and Romans being "Reformed" out of the Temple altogether. Where I disagree is on the aspect of removing the Temple Sacrifice and replacing it with a "Kingdom Ideal". That is, Crossan is WRONG and is operating in a Transvalued Universe where "Jesus" is going to initiate a Roman Kingdom of God dba an Updated Jewish Paradigm.

The Temple Reformers already have their Kingdom of God, they have had it for centuries. What do they expect to see?

Leviticus 9: 22 - 24 (RSV):

[22] Then Aaron lifted up his hands toward the people and blessed them; and he came down from offering the sin offering and the burnt offering and the peace offerings.
[23] And Moses and Aaron went into the tent of meeting; and when they came out they blessed the people, and the glory of the LORD appeared to all the people.
[24] And fire came forth from before the LORD and consumed the burnt offering and the fat upon the altar; and when all the people saw it, they shouted, and fell on their faces.

Going back to the 4 BCE Passover, when those strange people inside the Temple...you know, the ones who have the ability to perform sacrifices in the Temple but are not named by Josephus, stone the soldiers, what do they do?

Josephus, Wars..., 2, 1, 3:

"At this Archclaus (sic) was aftrighted, and privately sent a tribune, with his cohort of soldiers, upon them, before the disease should spread over the whole multitude, and gave orders that they should constrain those that began the tumult, by force, to be quiet. At these the whole multitude were irritated, and threw stones at many of the soldiers, and killed them; but the tribune fled away wounded, and had much ado to escape so. After which they betook themselves to their sacrifices, as if they had done no mischief..."

Why would you provoke soldiers and others by killing them and then return to Sacrifices as if nothing had happened? One reason might be that you expect God to intervene and bring Fire down from Heaven and consume the offerings on the Altar to show the Children of the Israelites that the Herodians and Romans will be consumed as well. See Leviticus 26. It is not the Temple and Sacrifice that will be destroyed, it is the Retrograde and Unclean Rulers who will be destroyed and the Original Promises will be Restored. There is no Replacement Theology, that's TRANSVALUATION that comes later. Destroy the Temple? "That's OK, we can build a new one in days..."

There will be Reform, just not Transvalued Reform.

CW
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Atheist assumptions dating Gospels are wrong

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Kris wrote:I was wanting to create a new post on a few things that Justin stated in his dialogue with Trypho as well, but can't yet figure out how to create a brand new post!
Near the top of the page of a forum, there is a 'newtopic' buttom.
http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=3
http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/post ... e=post&f=3
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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spin
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Re: Atheist assumptions dating Gospels are wrong

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Peter Kirby wrote:...buttom...
A portmanteau word?
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Atheist assumptions dating Gospels are wrong

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spin wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:...buttom...
A portmanteau word?
:lol:
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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