1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

[Ben C. Smith]

Nazara, truth probably were called Nazarenes.

ah, for some reason i though 'Nazara' meant 'truth' in Hebrew or some other langauge
on checking i remembered it from the gospel of Philip which says that's what it means
but i don't know if thats 'true' or not!

There is no truth to it so far as I know. I think that, as the religion spread far and wide, away from its Semitic language roots, etymologies were confused or made up for the sake of the initiated.

What bothered me about this, is a James was said to lead the church after Jesus, yet this would have them both
crucified at the same time. Unless this 'Jesus' was a previous Father, say John, and James did lead the church
after him with Simon being more of a travelling preacher

The other issue is that these names (Simon, James, Jesus, John) were very common at the time (Simon being the single most common Jewish male name). This will naturally produce coincidences or false positives; but it also means that it was super easy to confuse the different people being talked about, potentially producing those cases when personages get mixed up over the course of transmission. Mary Magdalene is separate from the other women named Mary in the canonical gospels, yet later Christians confused them and thought of them as one (and, of course, Mary was one of the two most common female names, the other being Salome).

I'm sure Mary/Ignatius letter which contains clues like it says
" to decide the important question concerning the children of the two women, when it was unknown to whom these respectively belonged"
What two women could this be?

Is this just referring to 1 Kings 3.16-28?

There's also the curious connections between Simon Magus's life and Jesus

Yes.

Why does Simon rescue Helena in Tyre and Jesus make the same journey in an odd passage in Mark?

And of course that visit to Tyre happens in the mysterious Bethsaida section of Mark.

Honestly, I have perused many, many different treatments of what may be going on with Simon Magus (he is Paul; he is Peter; he is Jesus; he is Simon of Cyrene; he is Simon the son of Judas of the Galilean; the first Christianity was Simonian; Simonian Christianity was a reaction to the first Christianity; and so on), and I really have little to no idea yet what is actually happening there.

Was Helena (Queen) captured and sold into slavery and Simon rescued her together with her daughter Mary of Helene (Mary Magda Helene)

Magdalene = "of Magdala" (מגדלא):

Jerusalem Talmud, Erubin 4.3: 3 .... Said R. Hunah, “That is the case if the four cubits [owing to the man] were included [within the original Sabbath limit he enjoyed], just as does the Sabbath limit of Tiberias lie [within four cubits of] the Sabbath limit of Magdala [מגדלא].” ....

מגדל‎ = "tower." There were rather many towns named thus; we are probably talking about Migdal Nunayya (מגדל נוניא) which means "fish tower," which may be the modern al-Majdal.

[Secret Alias]

The root of migdal as tower is the Semitic word for "great" mighty גדל

[Ben C. Smith]

The root of migdal as tower is the Semitic word for "great" mighty גדל

Makes sense.

Unrelatedly, that was one of the first words I learned in Hebrew.

[Secret Alias]

Isn't it funny when you are a scholar learning vocabulary it's so different than what would come naturally if you were living and participating in a culture. I honestly think my son's first word was Frappuccino.

[davidmartin]

Is this just referring to 1 Kings 3.16-28?

have a little look at the Ignatius/Maria letter, i'm sure i'm seeing something here
here's a summary of what i'm seeing

- an entreaty to excercise the mind in reading the OT quotes that follow, that are rather free as well not literal

- a quote reproving an old man whose sons elevated themselves in the priesthood (In the Gospel the disciples argue over who is the greatest)

- a quote condemning certain old men with libertine practices "abandoned wretches, and not worthy to be reckoned elders, and that, though Jews by extraction, they were Canaanites in practice" - the Nicolaitens would fit this well - and they claimed they were elders did they.. makes sense!

- a quote about a young man who refused to be called a prophet and was praised for it - tempting to think of Jesus here, denying his status (king/prophet/messiah)

- a quote about Solomon - in his 12th year (that's not in the OT but Jesus was 12 in Luke at the temple though), deciding to who the children of two women belonged. Referring perhaps to the arguments over geanelogy (ie Jesus and his disciples relations) we see in the NT

- continuing with Solomon he is praised in first person terms almost by Maria "that that woman, though herself so wise, was beyond measure astonished". And we know a Mary with a reputation for wisdom, and astonishment was a well known Christian state of mind (Gosp Thomas/Mattias/Simonians)

- lastly a quote that sounds like Paul "when as yet he could scarcely speak articulately" - Paul well known for saying he is not a good public speaker - She describes the killing of the ungodly then says "To such an extent did he display zeal in the cause of godliness, and prove himself a punisher of the ungodly, while he as yet faltered in speech like a child". Paul to a tee

This is either co-incidence or Maria was trying to draw attention to these matters obliquely via scripture quotes
If you ask me, people back then were highly skilled at doing such things, I've seen too many examples not to ever take things at face value!

https://www.biblestudytools.com/history ... atius.html

[Ben C. Smith]

Is this just referring to 1 Kings 3.16-28?

have a little look at the Ignatius/Maria letter, i'm sure i'm seeing something here
here's a summary of what i'm seeing

....

- a quote about Solomon - in his 12th year (that's not in the OT but Jesus was 12 in Luke at the temple though), deciding to who the children of two women belonged. Referring perhaps to the arguments over geanelogy (ie Jesus and his disciples relations) we see in the NT

Okay, first things first, then. Most manuscripts of the OT lack any mention of Solomon's age, true, but manuscript A of the Old Greek adds at 1 Kings 2.12 that Solomon was "a son of twelve years" (υἱὸς ἐτῶν δώδεκα), when he took the throne, and the assumption was probably that the incident with the two mothers took place during his first year, since it is related so early in his reign. Eupolemus, apud Polyhistor, apud Eusebius, repeats this same tradition that Solomon was twelve years old when he took the throne; and so does Apostolic Constitutions 2.1. The long version of the epistle to the Magnesians repeats this factoid about Solomon, as well. So any direct, instantly meaningful reference to Jesus' age in the temple story is probably not going to work for me; it is just a tapping into the Jewish tradition about Solomon, of which there was plenty.

[davidmartin]

fair enough and I bow to your superior knowledge on this I don't have time to go down every avenue I want to unfortunately
Its more likely the other way around then, the 12 years getting into Jesus's life story from there. Not that it's of great importance unless you're a Valentinian and see hidden clues in almost every word of the gospels!

Still, the epistle of Maria I still think spills some information, and I have a theory on why but unless anyone see's what i'm seeing i'll sit on that for now as requires treating this as a real early letter, say late 1st century.
I mean the Nicolaitens reference it's them to a tee. Jewish, libertine, saying they are elders (Nicolaus was a deacon)
The reference to Paul seems quite explicit to gain old Ignatius's ear

[Ben C. Smith]

fair enough and I bow to your superior knowledge on this I don't have time to go down every avenue I want to unfortunately
Its more likely the other way around then, the 12 years getting into Jesus's life story from there. Not that it's of great importance unless you're a Valentinian and see hidden clues in almost every word of the gospels!

Still, the epistle of Maria I still think spills some information, and I have a theory on why but unless anyone see's what i'm seeing i'll sit on that for now as requires treating this as a real early letter, say late 1st century.
I mean the Nicolaitens reference it's them to a tee. Jewish, libertine, saying they are elders (Nicolaus was a deacon)
The reference to Paul seems quite explicit to gain old Ignatius's ear

Dating something/anything from the Long Recension that early... wow.

Eusebius' knowledge of early Christian literature in Greek was encyclopedic, and I believe he knew only the Middle Recension.

But no problem. That is what we are doing here: trying to figure things out.

Its more likely the other way around then, the 12 years getting into Jesus's life story from there.

The passage from boyhood to manhood at age 12 was something of a motif.

[perseusomega9]

Is this just referring to 1 Kings 3.16-28?

have a little look at the Ignatius/Maria letter, i'm sure i'm seeing something here
here's a summary of what i'm seeing

- an entreaty to excercise the mind in reading the OT quotes that follow, that are rather free as well not literal

- a quote reproving an old man whose sons elevated themselves in the priesthood (In the Gospel the disciples argue over who is the greatest)

- a quote condemning certain old men with libertine practices "abandoned wretches, and not worthy to be reckoned elders, and that, though Jews by extraction, they were Canaanites in practice" - the Nicolaitens would fit this well - and they claimed they were elders did they.. makes sense!

- a quote about a young man who refused to be called a prophet and was praised for it - tempting to think of Jesus here, denying his status (king/prophet/messiah)

- a quote about Solomon - in his 12th year (that's not in the OT but Jesus was 12 in Luke at the temple though), deciding to who the children of two women belonged. Referring perhaps to the arguments over geanelogy (ie Jesus and his disciples relations) we see in the NT

- continuing with Solomon he is praised in first person terms almost by Maria "that that woman, though herself so wise, was beyond measure astonished". And we know a Mary with a reputation for wisdom, and astonishment was a well known Christian state of mind (Gosp Thomas/Mattias/Simonians)

- lastly a quote that sounds like Paul "when as yet he could scarcely speak articulately" - Paul well known for saying he is not a good public speaker - She describes the killing of the ungodly then says "To such an extent did he display zeal in the cause of godliness, and prove himself a punisher of the ungodly, while he as yet faltered in speech like a child". Paul to a tee

This is either co-incidence or Maria was trying to draw attention to these matters obliquely via scripture quotes
If you ask me, people back then were highly skilled at doing such things, I've seen too many examples not to ever take things at face value!

https://www.biblestudytools.com/history ... atius.html

Like most things NT (e.g. pastorals) when the letter writer is attesting/recommending the "young" pastor, it's probably referring to a newer doctrine/teaching than what the community is used to.

[davidmartin]

Dating something/anything from the Long Recension that early... wow.

i knew it was coming. guess that makes me a heretic!

the reason is, it fits a puzzle piece in for me. let's say this Mary is an elder, and according to Ignatius's reply she was in Rome in Linus's time
Let's further say she has something to do with the Johannine community, as the same set of letters states directly is the case
Then we might be seeing where the Gospel of John came from, in real time. those young pastors returned with something in writing and maybe a view they are better placed to lead the church than the ones currently in situ (1/2/3 John ensues)
Because i think John is late but written by people that knew things by association with the people/events. So it's both early and late at the same time in a sense. And the long suspected veiled identity of the beloved disciple - Mary
What else?
This Mary was for a time an authority, the old lady in the Shepherd of Hermas has striking similarities and ties to Rome and Linus
Even the prophetess of Revelation
Later after some more time and troubles she would rather be forgotten completely. A pious loss of memory
So I'm seeing an elder of the original movement active in the later 1st century and still at work... there's more on that in Gnostic territory, but i'll leave that for now. I'm saying this is Mary Magdalene

Last seen in the other heretical Ignatius letter to Philipians about early enemies of the gospel (Judas/Sadducess/Pharisees) "He terrified also the silly woman, disturbing her by dreams" Silly/Wise. Dreams/Visions
This is the picture i'm seeing by freestyling together sources and treating them just for what they say about themselves ignoring the consensus on dates just whatever fits best